Land border / neighbour dispute. Next steps?

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integrale_evo
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Land border / neighbour dispute. Next steps?

Post by integrale_evo »

I have no idea of the actual legal ins/ outs of this or really what to do about it. May be a long post…

My parents barn.

Originally there was my grandads house, and essentially three barns. As part of dividing the estate after his death it was split as house + some land. Barn 1 (ours) with planning permission + some land, barn 2 with planning permission + some land, barn 3 (Romney hut) no planning - agricultural use plus the rest of the land.

Boundaries set by the estate agent. House sold with its land. My mum decided to keep barn 1 so effectively bought her brother out. Barn 2 plus the Romney hut plus the farm land sold to a local farmer. All fine.

Farmer decides the barns don’t fit with his plans. Decides to sell. All borders still marked with the original estate agents posts. Twin sisters buy barn 2 with its bit of land. They then decide they don’t like the idea of tractors driving past their house 🙄 so eventually the farmer sells them the Romney hut, and a little more land at a ridiculous price. Fair enough, good on him in fact.

Anyway, time goes on. For some reason there’s a souring of relations between ‘us’ and the twins. No idea how it started, I don’t remember a specific incident, we were letting them use our land / driveway to access their property on the understanding that it was until they had sorted their own access off the road.

Eventually they construct an access, we arrive a couple of days later and find a pile of earth at the end of our drive and a row of conifers planted. No warning, discussion, conversation, courtesy correspondence. Ok, fair enough, their land, do what they like.

From then on, every time we leave, the boundary posts get moved, random heath robinson posts, bits of string, ‘view blockers’ (for want of a better description) get put up, heaps of dirt moved.

My mum paid for the estate agent to come and measure the boundaries, correct or verify that things were where they were supposed to be. The twins were offered various dates so they could attend. They agreed on one. An hour before the agent turned up on that day they said they couldn’t make it ( despite living there in a static caravan..)

Visit went ahead, measurements verified, letters sent to both parties stating the marker posts were correct and not to be moved.

Ever since there has been a daft battle with things getting moved constantly. She (lead twin) has all the time in the world, we cannot be there all the time to monitor things, and shouldn’t have to.

We’re not talking masses of land here. Just 6-8 inches or so at a time. Probably seems very petty, but a border should be a border, once set it should stay there.

Thankfully my dad concreted in one of the original posts so it’s very clear to see when the other stakes have all been stepped in from this.

Just wondering how this can be resolved, or at least how we can get her to stop moving and messing around with our things, I just don’t know what the next steps should be to stop it being a silly tittle tattle dispute which runs on for years.
Cheers, Harry
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Mito Man
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Re: Land border / neighbour dispute. Next steps?

Post by Mito Man »

Had the same with a farmer who rented the field next door which made it more odd.
Got a surveyor from the estate agent who rented the farm to the farmer.
Surveyor gps marked boundary coordinates with stakes. (Still don’t understand how this worked as the land boundary was centuries old)
We went out the next weekend and knocked posts in then put stock fencing.

Also if you have a large area of land which isn’t totally fenced off you might want to put in a s31(6) deposit to stop random people claiming they’ve walked across there for 20 years asking for public rights of way… Been there done that :roll:
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mik
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Re: Land border / neighbour dispute. Next steps?

Post by mik »

What sort of length are you talking about? A basic 3 or 4 ft high wire & post fence won’t cost much to put in - on the correct boundary. Take plenty of pics (inc some drone shots from above?). Hopefully enough to stop them fucking around, and if not - you will have evidence if they do fuck about.
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Re: Land border / neighbour dispute. Next steps?

Post by IanF »

Landmines?
Cheers,

Ian
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Simon
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Re: Land border / neighbour dispute. Next steps?

Post by Simon »

^^ But you'll need two as there are twins.
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Jobbo
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Re: Land border / neighbour dispute. Next steps?

Post by Jobbo »

Getting into a boundary dispute is to be avoided if possible - they take forever to resolve, cost a fortune and nobody wins in the end, usually. Even if you lived in the property the whole time and have photos showing the boundary, you may not win (seen that happen to a client - they used their house insurance to pay for solicitors nominated by the insurer and I kept a watch over it) and the loser probably has to sell their property to pay the costs.

So, while you could instruct a solicitor be aware that this is potentially just the beginning of a very drawn out process which can occupy your life. If you have a practical way to resolve it - e.g. you can identify with evidence the correct boundary line on the ground and it matches the plans in the deeds, erect a solid boundary fence. If they then take it down or harm it, that's criminal damage. It would also put the onus on them to take action. But before doing this, you need to be very, very certain indeed of your (and the boundary's) position. Be aware that what may appear absolutely clear to you may be viewed very differently from the other side.
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Re: Land border / neighbour dispute. Next steps?

Post by Gavster »

Sounds like you need to go on a charm offensive, become super friendly and put forward a very very considerately worded suggestion that you are going to erect a fence to ensure their land is correctly marked because it's important that they are getting full and total access to every last inch of the land that they're entitled to and because you're so generous you're willing to do this for them to ensure there's no confusion. Then never talk to them again.
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Mito Man
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Re: Land border / neighbour dispute. Next steps?

Post by Mito Man »

Plant a Laurel hedge alongside it too. They really won't like that in a few years time :lol:
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Re: Land border / neighbour dispute. Next steps?

Post by Shlergen »

I have nothing to add, what a nightmare. Hammer some frozen sausages nearby the connifer roots and hope for badgers.
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Re: Land border / neighbour dispute. Next steps?

Post by Sundayjumper »

Hammer some frozen sausages and hope for badgers ? That’s something I won’t be looking up on Urban Dictionary.
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mik
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Re: Land border / neighbour dispute. Next steps?

Post by mik »

Sundayjumper wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2024 4:31 pm Hammer in some frozen sausages and hope for badgers ?

.... said the Bishop to the netball team.
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integrale_evo
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Re: Land border / neighbour dispute. Next steps?

Post by integrale_evo »

Around 75m along the border with them, at a guess. Even basic fencing isn’t cheap, and they have already been very awkward and at times abusive to people we’ve had working for us. Including trying to take the tools of the workmen building a boundary wall along part of the plot!

They are very odd. Their original planning expired so they got new plans approved but have done nothing. I’d be amazed if any builder would work for them. If they do I’m sure they’ll add on a substantial awkward customer tax to the bill!

I’m happy to ignore a lot, but the constant moving things around is incredibly annoying and frustrating.
Cheers, Harry
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Re: Land border / neighbour dispute. Next steps?

Post by Jimexpl »

Get a round post and livestock netting fence up asap - most farm contractors could get that done in a day, it’ll clearly mark the boundary but not create a massive visual barrier as if you’re trying to be difficult.
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Mito Man
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Re: Land border / neighbour dispute. Next steps?

Post by Mito Man »

Yeah that’s easy, you need 30 posts and 100m of stock fencing. Probably £300 total in materials and don’t skimp on the materials.

If you want to save money you can usually get a mini digger with post knocker and an operator hired off eBay for a day rate. The actual fencing bit isn’t too bad, just time consuming nailing.
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GG.
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Re: Land border / neighbour dispute. Next steps?

Post by GG. »

Jobbo wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2024 12:50 pm Getting into a boundary dispute is to be avoided if possible - they take forever to resolve, cost a fortune and nobody wins in the end, usually. Even if you lived in the property the whole time and have photos showing the boundary, you may not win (seen that happen to a client - they used their house insurance to pay for solicitors nominated by the insurer and I kept a watch over it) and the loser probably has to sell their property to pay the costs.

So, while you could instruct a solicitor be aware that this is potentially just the beginning of a very drawn out process which can occupy your life. If you have a practical way to resolve it - e.g. you can identify with evidence the correct boundary line on the ground and it matches the plans in the deeds, erect a solid boundary fence. If they then take it down or harm it, that's criminal damage. It would also put the onus on them to take action. But before doing this, you need to be very, very certain indeed of your (and the boundary's) position. Be aware that what may appear absolutely clear to you may be viewed very differently from the other side.
I thought I should post and a response to this seemed appropriate... I hadn't mentioned it on here for various (and hopefully obvious) reasons but I just got to resolution in respect of our own boundary dispute earlier this week.

I will only set out the background in brief but essentially, the prior but one owner of our house (in what I expect was maybe 2005-ish) orally agreed with the old lady of the house whose garden was perpendicular to ours, to use part of the back of her garden. They have a very long garden and ours a much smaller one so in effect it was the back 20 feet of her garden but an area equal to possibly 40% of ours...

Anyway, the people who originally agreed that arrangement took the fence down and incorporated it into the garden of our house and it stayed like that throughout the tenure of the next owners and then onto us when we bought it. There had been some (one way) written correspondence between the prior owners but pretty clearly nothing that amounted to an agreement regarding how the land was to be used.

Long story short old lady dies, sons want the land back - by this point we've renovated the garden replaced the fencing and replaced the rotten decking with travertine paving so it was not easily "reversible" in any sensible way, plus we had not had any contact with the owners of the house since we moved in (7 years prior). If I could prove adverse possession for the directly preceding owners I could potentially get to the 10 years required... but it is then much harder to obtain equitable title due to statutory changes and limited number of safe harbours which we probably couldn't have availed ourselves of.

Anyway, we ended up in an exchange of solicitors letters (first one received on the final working day before Christmas last year - thanks for that!) threatening litigation and scary words about recovery of costs, etc. It took me about 4 months of back and forth, representing myself, to extract the necessary information from them (which showed they had no written evidence and had responded to none of the letters that the prior owners had sent) and built up my adverse possession arguments and timeline.

Ultimately I knew if it went to the Land Tribunal I would likely lose and could be tens of thousands out of pocket so in addition to all the legal stuff in my response to their letter of claim, I said that to resolve the issue I would pay them a settlement amount (not purchase - can't say that in adverse possession cases) of £10k to "update the register at the Land Registry" (which really was a regular transfer by TP1). The process of conveyancing then took NINE MONTHS and we only just completed on Monday - so a year long process.

So yes, Jobbo is right - avoid if you can!! Plus if you aren't a solicitor/able to represent yourself, its going to be very expensive unless you have insurance that will cover it...
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Re: Land border / neighbour dispute. Next steps?

Post by Gavster »

FWIW, despite all the stress etc, that does seem like a decent outcome. Obviously massively mitigated financially by representing yourself. Glad you got it sorted on everyone's agreement too without ending up in the courts.
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GG.
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Re: Land border / neighbour dispute. Next steps?

Post by GG. »

Oh yes definitely and clearly nothing like your saga (do you have a new court date yet?).

I was ecstatic when they agreed to settle as the alternatives were much more painful. Also glad I didn't pay £2k for an initial letter of response which is what I was quoted... I think I'd have spent double the settlement cost if I'd paid for counsel.
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Re: Land border / neighbour dispute. Next steps?

Post by Rich B »

Presumably your surveys/etc showed the boundary not being right when you bought the house? did that affect mortgages/etc or did you just keep quiet?
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mik
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Re: Land border / neighbour dispute. Next steps?

Post by mik »

GG. wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 12:44 pm
I was ecstatic when they agreed to settle as the alternatives were much more painful.
Sounds like a great result for £10k (given that you're in Lahndahn).
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Re: Land border / neighbour dispute. Next steps?

Post by GG. »

Rich B wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2024 1:25 pm Presumably your surveys/etc showed the boundary not being right when you bought the house? did that affect mortgages/etc or did you just keep quiet?
The seller disclosed that they didn't own that part of the garden and its not quite like a typical boundary dispute as the title to the property the seller owned was all fine and the mortgage survey didn't flag anything (unlike 'potential' asbestos which they did flag and turned out to be nothing after I'd paid for an additional survey :roll: ). Effectively our bank was/is only financing the original area reflected on the title - we'd just bought a property with a garden with no fence at the back and some decking on the next door neighbours that we had possession of, but had not bought... If necessary we would have just erected a fence on the proper boundary that aligned with the title.

One thing I haven't done though is ask merge the new title that will be created with the existing one for our house as given our title is mortgaged we'd need bank consent to do that. That will probably mean some more faffing about when we sell as we'll have to transfer two separate titles or grasp the nettle of merging them at that point.
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