Boring 190E cosworth poll

[mik]

Prompted by discussion on the newly announced HWA 190E 2.5-16 Evo II restomod....


Wholly irrelevant background

I like the 190E 2.5-16.

It was the first "proper" performance car I piloted. I’d driven several hot-hatches by this point, but nothing producing more than 137bhp, and exclusively FWD obvs. The Merc was the (pretty much brand new) company car of a (rather successful) salesman for my employer at the time. I flew to Gatwick to meet him, and yabbered on about his car so much en-route to a big client that he proposed I drive the return leg. Despite the (pretty bitter) personal disappointment that it was an auto, I did of course bite his hand off. No, not literally.

The power delivery and overall "character" of the car aligned pretty much perfectly with the mental image I'd built via several Fast Lane magazine articles. It felt bloody fabulous – firm, but all body movement tightly controlled and plenty of feedback through the controls. I had to reign myself in a little after accelerating off a roundabout onto a dual carriageway and finding myself holding just a smidge (lets say 5-10 degrees) of oppo under power at around 60mph before the car straightened up. The 190E telegraphed this need clearly, and felt reassuringly friendly that I was pretty comfortable (and excited) by this, but the owner of the car shuffled in his seat sufficiently that I apologised and checked my enthusiasm…… just a little.


Get to your point mik

Everyone knows about the Sierra Cosworth. It was named thus

Cosworth also partnered with Mercedes to create the 2.3-16 powerplant (essentially the work on the cylinder head), and whilst Merc didn’t add “Cosworth” to the (already too long) model name, they were keen to emphasise this motorsport partnership in their press blurb. The UK-spec 2.3 litre version made a respectable 185PS.

Much like BMW with the M3, Merc later upped the capacity to 2.5 to align with GroupA regs, enabling a power increase to 204PS. My recollection is that Merc dropped all references to Cosworth in their press releases for the 2.5-16, and marketed it as a fully in-house development. I took this as a “fact”, but heard murmurings that Cosworth had actually remained involved, but Merc were keen to downplay this in order to minimise “Cosworth-powered Ford is more powerful than Cosworth-powered Merc” comparisons.


Yes that’s all very interesting, but what are you actually asking?

A quick google revealed very little in the way of facts on this topic, so for my amusement only (unless you have insider info) : do you consider/understand the Merc 190E 2.5-16 to be a “Cosworth”

Completely gratuitous image of a racing version

[jamcg]

Have you been painting your tyre lettering in a confined space or something?

[Jobbo]

I really think you should include the Ford Granada Scorpio 24v in this thread. Another car with Cosworth input which was not externally badged a Cosworth at all and therefore twatty to refer to as a Cosworth.

Edited to add wanky pic of a non-factory badge:

[Carlos]

My uncle had a couple of Scorpios in the 80s and 90s and they were externally badged as a Cosworth along with engine cam covers.

He is a bit of a show off but I'd be surprised if he stuck them on lol

[mik]

Hmm - I thought they did have standard (relatively subtle) Cosworth badging on the rear. Exactly as shown in that photo in fact.

I received an awful overtake from one years ago - long straight on an A road heading towards Irvine, I overtook in my Maestro efi. One of these followed me past the dawdler, but stayed out to overtake me too - for which he’d have needed significantly more firepower than he had. I had to back off and let the walloper in as we approached the blind brow at the end of the straight

[Nefarious]

IIRC, Keith Duckworth refers to the development of both in his autobiography.
By the time the Ford and Merc partnerships happened, Cosworth had already split its plant into one where the exciting stuff happened, and one to work on these cash-cow/marketing-driven partnerships.

It's a while since I read it so the details are a bit hazy, but he was a bit disparaging about the commercial necessity to "breathe on" road cars. I suspect both got about 10 minutes of the big man's time (which is still an amazing 10 minutes) and then farmed out to the unloved factory.

Oh, and while you're mentioning low-key Cosworth collaborations, don't forget about Vauxhall and the XE

ETA - Cosworth refer to the Merc project as "WAB" for both 2.3 and 2.5 engines (even though they list the engines separately), which probably implies that there wasn't actually that much changed in the heads between the two iterations (I know there were at least *some* changes to allow for the different timing chain set-up)

[mik]

@Nefarious Nice

[Jobbo]

Hmm - I thought they did have standard (relatively subtle) Cosworth badging on the rear. Exactly as shown in that photo in fact.

The badge which looks quite different and is deteriorating, unlike the OE badges above it? It's even mounted on a crease in the bootlid as further evidence that it's not supposed to be there

[Jobbo]

Here's a photo of the saloon version from the 1991 Ford brochure - the added badge was just the 24v one:

[Nefarious]

In a possible correction to my earlier post, Wikipedia says the the Cosworth designation for the 2.3 was WAA, for the 2.5 was WAB and for the 2.5 Evo was WAC.

[Carlos]

Pinched from fordscorpio.co.uk - some did, some didn't and Uncle John may have had a penchant for stick on tat as well as shiny suits

"When the 24V Cosworth engine was introduced in the 92 Granada the Cosworth moniker was reserved for the lower boot location but with the introduction of the Scorpio, no COSWORTH badges were placed on the bodywork. It was as if Ford decided not to announce it or maybe their experiences with the Sierra Cosworth and the high insurance and theft rates decided it for them - the 24V badges on the wings would have to be enough. In fact the Granada 24V badges were different from the Scorpio, having a more serif font, (6 641 594).

However, there are two COSWORTH badges which one might consider mounting on the rear, perhaps to give warning to the tailgating driver of that Golf GTi before he blows a head gasket trying to keep up. (My 95 Scorpio Ultima has no badge at all mounted on the rear tailgate, except the Ford oval.)

The badges were issued for the Escort and Sierra Cosworths. One is a plain badge, 6 650 549 and the other with a black background, 6 499 467."

[V8Granite]

I don’t mind either way, if it was a Cosworth designed cylinder head then it can have the badge.

Dave!

[Jobbo]

Pinched from fordscorpio.co.uk - some did, some didn't and Uncle John may have had a penchant for stick on tat as well as shiny suits

"When the 24V Cosworth engine was introduced in the 92 Granada the Cosworth moniker was reserved for the lower boot location but with the introduction of the Scorpio, no COSWORTH badges were placed on the bodywork. It was as if Ford decided not to announce it or maybe their experiences with the Sierra Cosworth and the high insurance and theft rates decided it for them - the 24V badges on the wings would have to be enough. In fact the Granada 24V badges were different from the Scorpio, having a more serif font, (6 641 594).

However, there are two COSWORTH badges which one might consider mounting on the rear, perhaps to give warning to the tailgating driver of that Golf GTi before he blows a head gasket trying to keep up. (My 95 Scorpio Ultima has no badge at all mounted on the rear tailgate, except the Ford oval.)

The badges were issued for the Escort and Sierra Cosworths. One is a plain badge, 6 650 549 and the other with a black background, 6 499 467."

I've seen that - however, Ford's own UK brochures disprove the presence of a Cosworth badge on the back on the pre-fisheye Granadas and nobody cares about the ugly Scorpio Ultima. I suspect Ford dealers may have stuck them on, and someone on a forum seems to have a car registered with the DVLA as a Scorpio Ultima Cosworth - which was definitely not the official name, and isn't visible on Howmanyleft. I guess Ford dealers were fanboys themselves in the 90s and gilded the lily somewhat

[V8Granite]

There is a 450hp+ version of the 2.9Cosworth in a blue Mini as my friend Mike built it. The issue was head lift as the area around the studs was quite weak and used to move I believe.

Dave!

[MikeHunt]

Is the 190e cooler than a 500e? Most will say no, but I think it's a much closer call than you'd first think.

Edit to add: I test drove a cheap as chips Scorpio a few years ago, they probably kept the cossie badges off for brand reputation.

[integrale_evo]

I expect many left the dealers with cosworth badges, which probably lead to people thinking they were factory fitted. Much like the M badges bmw dealers were happy to stick on sport models.

Now manufacturers themselves will stick on all sorts to make a base model look like their high performance version

[MikeHunt]

The AMG v class springs to mind.

[Jobbo]

I expect many left the dealers with cosworth badges, which probably lead to people thinking they were factory fitted. Much like the M badges bmw dealers were happy to stick on sport models.

Now manufacturers themselves will stick on all sorts to make a base model look like their high performance version

Fuck yeah - imagine if it had been released in the last decade

[V8Granite]

Is the 190e cooler than a 500e? Most will say no, but I think it's a much closer call than you'd first think.

Edit to add: I test drove a cheap as chips Scorpio a few years ago, they probably kept the cossie badges off for brand reputation.

The EVO 2 is far far cooler than a 500e.

The 500e only exists due to the M5 so in my head is as cool as a 3.8 M5.

Dave!

[Beany]

I've seen that - however, Ford's own UK brochures disprove the presence of a Cosworth badge on the back on the pre-fisheye Granadas

Given I recently discovered that the Ford brochures call the hatchback Mondeo - not the estate, the hatch - a 'five door saloon' I'm questioning whether Fords brochures exist in the same world as us, to be honest.