Anti EV-only Petition

[duncs500]

An interesting and not entirely dissimilar test will be the expansion to the ULEZ to my area in September of this year. Accordingly to TfLs propaganda "4 in 5" of London's cars are already compliant and so it not going to be a big inconvenience. This clearly must take into account the existing ULEZ areas as around where I am approximately 50% of all cars on the road will attract the daily charge. Going to be some massive ructions come the autumn I expect when people get hit hard in the wallet.

Ah, I need to talk about the ULEZ. My mate wants to buy a 911 and I'm eagerly encouraging him. He lives in Rotherhithe and has tasked me with telling him what he needs to worry about with changes to the London restrictions in the future. Information via Google is pretty sketchy.

I want to point him in the direction of a 991, because he's a NCG so won't care about the EPAS, but I still think he should get something pre-turbot.

Talk to me @GG. .

[simon_g]

I think all 997 are OK too. Some people have managed to get exemptions if they can show their car or bike would meet Euro 4 but predated it (certificate of compliance or similar from manufacturer). Easiest just to stick the registration in the TfL ULEZ checker though. https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/check-your-vehicle/

[duncs500]

I think all 997 are OK too. Some people have managed to get exemptions if they can show their car or bike would meet Euro 4 but predated it (certificate of compliance or similar from manufacturer). Easiest just to stick the registration in the TfL ULEZ checker though. https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/check-your-vehicle/

I think he's more worried about proposed future changes rather than what's happening right now. I just think he doesn't want to buy a car that then suddenly he has to pay to use where he lives.

[Swervin_Mervin]

I think all 997 are OK too. Some people have managed to get exemptions if they can show their car or bike would meet Euro 4 but predated it (certificate of compliance or similar from manufacturer). Easiest just to stick the registration in the TfL ULEZ checker though. https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/check-your-vehicle/

I think he's more worried about proposed future changes rather than what's happening right now. I just think he doesn't want to buy a car that then suddenly he has to pay to use where he lives.

If that's the case he won't ever buy a car regardless of where he lives

[simon_g]

Taycan then! You can guarantee that anything that burns fuel will get more and more restricted in London in the coming decades.

[duncs500]

I think all 997 are OK too. Some people have managed to get exemptions if they can show their car or bike would meet Euro 4 but predated it (certificate of compliance or similar from manufacturer). Easiest just to stick the registration in the TfL ULEZ checker though. https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/check-your-vehicle/

I think he's more worried about proposed future changes rather than what's happening right now. I just think he doesn't want to buy a car that then suddenly he has to pay to use where he lives.

If that's the case he won't ever buy a car regardless of where he lives

He seemed to think that there were more changes imminent for London but maybe he's wrong.

[GG.]

Let's see I guess. I fully expect that if/when the country is not ready to cope with the changeover the 2035 date will get pushed out. We see it commonly in the legal world where deadlines are set with an aim of influencing behaviour but then stretch out into the future when its clear we won't get there (as I think will be the case here).

An interesting and not entirely dissimilar test will be the expansion to the ULEZ to my area in September of this year. Accordingly to TfLs propaganda "4 in 5" of London's cars are already compliant and so it not going to be a big inconvenience. This clearly must take into account the existing ULEZ areas as around where I am approximately 50% of all cars on the road will attract the daily charge. Going to be some massive ructions come the autumn I expect when people get hit hard in the wallet.

Anything petrol just needs to be Euro 4, lots was from 2001-ish, and everything was by 2006. That covers a hell of lot of the cars I see about, city dwellers tended not to buy diesels anyway. Even for diesels it needs to be Euro 6 and that's everything 2015 onwards. Getting rid of the old diesels will be very welcome.

I agree re the older non-adblue diesels (which stink). There's a lot of those round this way though.

Could be that I'm taking '06 as the cut off for the petrols and underestimating how many comply. There's still a decent number of much older petrol cars floating around though that can't possibly meet the standard.

[Swervin_Mervin]

I think he's more worried about proposed future changes rather than what's happening right now. I just think he doesn't want to buy a car that then suddenly he has to pay to use where he lives.

If that's the case he won't ever buy a car regardless of where he lives

He seemed to think that there were more changes imminent for London but maybe he's wrong.

More likely to be London tbf, but many areas will start to roll out similar measures soon. I fully expect that with the take up of more EVs there will be a switch to revised road-user charging at some point fairly soon. Only so long that reduced gain from fuel duty and VED will last.

[simon_g]

He seemed to think that there were more changes imminent for London but maybe he's wrong.

PHEVs lose their congestion charge exemption later this year. BEVs will lose it too a few years later - but that's only the most central zone and for the most part, avoidable. There's been a proposal to charge outsiders driving into London, but it's not any further than that yet.

Wouldn't be surprised if the Euro standards for ULEZ compliance get moved on every few years though.

[ZedLeg]

With regards to the cost of EVs, I don't think it'll be an issue by 2030. I reckon some if not most manufacturers will move to a rental/subscription payment model as that's how millenials and Gen Z prefer to pay for things.

[Mito Man]

There's going to be an Apple car so suddenly everyone over the age of 18 will be driving one

The solid cut off date was needed as we were at a point over the last decade where no manufacturers bar Tesla were making an effort. Traditional ICE brands clearly don't want to produce and sell EVs as that's shooting themselves in the foot in terms of future maintenance income. The ones who did fitted deliberately small batteries which compromised usability. Battery tech hasn't particularly improved over the last few years and everyone buys them from the same few producers yet suddenly everyone is selling vehicles with a 250+ mile range now that EV's are a necessary evil.
I believe Norway who were deeply invested in EV's complained that manufacturers deliberately held back EV production with low sales production to discourage people from buying them.

[GG.]

I think he's more worried about proposed future changes rather than what's happening right now. I just think he doesn't want to buy a car that then suddenly he has to pay to use where he lives.

If that's the case he won't ever buy a car regardless of where he lives

He seemed to think that there were more changes imminent for London but maybe he's wrong.

997.2 is more sensible than .1 for a host of reasons if you can afford it, but add to that it's also Euro V compliant so even if they bump the ULEZ to the next set of regs for petrol cars in a few years time it will still comply.

You would think they'll also only do that in tandem with putting diesels at Euro 7 and that standard doesn't exist yet so far as I'm aware so I think I (and your mate) would be fine for a good while with a .2

I'm very much hoping by the time I have reason to be concerned about the ULEZ i'll no longer live in London. Stuffed any dreams of buying a 993 or anything but an early 928 down the wazoo for the time being though.

Interested to see what my neighbour opposite will do with his 944. Let it rot I would imagine if Londoners as a breed are anything to go by.

[GG.]

Wouldn't be surprised if the Euro standards for ULEZ compliance get moved on every few years though.

Will be difficult to justify though as wood burning stoves and domestic gas boilers would likely outstrip any car emissions by that point. Of course that doesn't mean they won't try it given motorists are low hanging fruit.

[duncs500]

If that's the case he won't ever buy a car regardless of where he lives

He seemed to think that there were more changes imminent for London but maybe he's wrong.

997.2 is more sensible than .1 for a host of reasons if you can afford it, but add to that it's also Euro V compliant so even if they bump the ULEZ to the next set of regs for petrol cars in a few years time it will still comply.

I think he'll be wanting something newer anyway, I was thinking 991 was the correct choice for him.

[GG.]

If he’s a NCG then I’d advise him to go with the newest he can afford.

He’d likely be more impressed with the torque/acceleration of a 991.2 PDK than a 991.1 if budget allows.

[duncs500]

I'm not sure where he stands on manual vs pdk. I'm dead against anything turbot though. I'll be suggesting a 991.1 manual, but we'll see where he stands. I don't even know his budget at the moment, but he's just got a promotion so he's probably feeling flush.

[Rich B]

Had another meeting with my workmate with the Tesla in Bristol today. Again he managed to need a charger down there. He's a "creative" guy so not super organised and he has two cars - The Tesla which he keeps forgetting to charge the night before a long journey and a Landrover 90 which struggles much over 60mph and is too noisy for long journeys! I can't help but think something like a nice hybrid new landrover or something would suit him better!

[GG.]

I'm dead against anything turbot though. I'll be suggesting a 991.1 manual, but we'll see where he stands.

Is this ‘friend’ you by any chance??

[duncs500]

I'm dead against anything turbot though. I'll be suggesting a 991.1 manual, but we'll see where he stands.

Is this ‘friend’ you by any chance??

No, I'd have a 997 personally! I can't believe how much they want for 991s still, thought they'd be cheaper. I do think a nice 991.1 manual will hold its money pretty well though, that's last of the reason I'd suggest it. This might also be a good shout.

[V8Granite]

The range though was rubbish, 250 miles he has averaged when driving at 70 and gentle acceleration. Now take into account it’s a small car (relatively speaking) what would you have to spend to take a family of 4, a dog and a weeks worth of kit away ?

The petition wording is a bit crap and the points made are a bit silly. But the premise is fair - are we really going to be ready for EV-only in 2030?

Dave - your only current choices for what you describe are really the ModelX, Merc GLE or E-Tron. All are rather pricey, and a 2.5 tonne 4x4 EV can’t match the miles per kWH efficiency of smaller things like Model3

The Model X is too small, not sure on the GLE or ETron size but the range for both just isn’t suitable.

I hope common sense prevails but I’m not optimistic.

Dave!