Toilet definition

[Carlos]

If you want to wear a colander on your head, go for it, but don't try and make us all wear one and ostracise people who don't.

[dinny_g]

Cishet??! I can’t keep up!

Me too - had to look that and TERF up...

I suspect the lack of evidence as to the potential advantage Trans Gender athletes have over their Cis counterparts (<-- Is this right - apologies for any offence caused if not) is probably down to the likelihood of getting fired for even suggesting it...

e.g. https://www.rt.com/usa/455393-professor ... ews-fired/

[Rich B]

Cishet??! I can’t keep up!

Me too - had to look that and TERF up...

i’ve given up on that one - I’ve read the wiki and there’s too many big words.

[ZedLeg]

I've got better shit to be getting on with than this, but here's a start - top result from 1st Google

I wasn’t disputing that.

The hormones trans women take during transition reduce muscle development and bone density and if they want to compete in high level sport they have their hormone levels monitored.

My question still stands that if trans women generally have an advantage over bio women why isn’t high level sport dominated by trans women?

[ZedLeg]

Cishet??! I can’t keep up!

Me too - had to look that and TERF up...

I suspect the lack of evidence as to the potential advantage Trans Gender athletes have over their Cis counterparts (<-- Is this right - apologies for any offence caused if not) is probably down to the likelihood of getting fired for even suggesting it...

e.g. https://www.rt.com/usa/455393-professor ... ews-fired/

People suggest it all the time, they just can’t ever back it up.

[dinny_g]

My question still stands that if trans women generally have an advantage over bio women why isn’t high level sport dominated by trans women?

there are many reasons - for example not all sports reply on pure Athleticism. Technique counts for a lot. If you weren't a cis male High Jumper before your transition then you're unlikely to beat Yaroslava Mahuchikh following the surgery.

Even those that are (Say 5000m) still require a strong knowledge of training techniques, recovery times, race tactics etc to excel.

[duncs500]

I've got better shit to be getting on with than this, but here's a start - top result from 1st Google

I wasn’t disputing that.

The hormones trans women take during transition reduce muscle development and bone density and if they want to compete in high level sport they have their hormone levels monitored.

My question still stands that if trans women generally have an advantage over bio women why isn’t high level sport dominated by trans women?

Well you take the trans population (not large), then you take the percentage out of that a) want to be athletes and b) have a modicum of talent and I'd suggest you end up with a pretty small number of people.

...or is that too simplistic?

[ZedLeg]

My question still stands that if trans women generally have an advantage over bio women why isn’t high level sport dominated by trans women?

there are many reasons - for example not all sports reply on pure Athleticism. Technique counts for a lot. If you weren't a cis male High Jumper before your transition then you're unlikely to beat Yaroslava Mahuchikh following the surgery.

Even those that are (Say 5000m) still require a strong knowledge of training techniques, recovery times, race tactics etc to excel.

Yes let’s look at Rachel McKinnon, she won an event in a sport she’d been competing as a woman in for 6 years, against people who had beaten her before. She didn’t win because she’s trans she won because she’s good at her sport.

Wagner didn’t have an issue with competing against McKinnon when she was winning.

[GG.]

Still doesn't mean anything if, for example, the best biologically female athlete would have beaten McKinnon but for the advantage she has from being a biological male. You can't use the fact that she went from not winning at some point in the past to justify an inbuilt unfair competitive advantage that she has. It should be biologically a level playing field with ability/training making the difference - that's the point.

There will be some difference between individuals on testosterone which will make a difference, but sports governing bodies don't (or shouldn't) just stick their finger in the air - they will determine a standard deviation and set a point at which testosterone would only even be that high as a result of sex differences, not intra-sex deviations.

Even where sport then tries to control for that such as in the case of Caster Semanya by making her take testosterone suppressants as she's intersex, as mentioned above, this does not offset the fact that she benefited throughout her development by having those hormones which then are determinative to a degree of height & build. Removing those now doesn't entirely re-level the playing field.

Basically the justification for letting trans people compete in women's sport is that it would hurt their feelings if made to compete with men as they don't identify as male. I have sympathy with that on an emotional level but most people don't find that a good enough reason overall.

[ZedLeg]

What about trans men?

There’s a case in the US where a trans high school wrestler is absolutely dominating against girls because the people in charge won’t let him compete against boys.

If we’re taking this at a case by case basis, what’s the fair thing to do here?

ETA he's at college now, still not allowed to compete against men though.

[dinny_g]

Are we at #BecauseZed yet???

Can’t be far off

[GG.]

What about trans men?

There’s a case in the US where a trans high school wrestler is absolutely dominating against girls because the people in charge won’t let him compete against boys.

If we’re taking this at a case by case basis, what’s the fair thing to do here?

ETA he's at college now, still not allowed to compete against men though.

You mean a biological XX female that identifies as a man?

If he doesn't take androgenic supplements but still wins hands down again other biological females I don't see the issue.

If he does then he should compete with men/not be permitted to compete against women.

I think I know the case you mean though and its the other way round - XY male. If so, he should be allowed to compete against other biological males. I can't see the justification not.

[ZedLeg]

So if you're a woman that transitions to be a man you should compete against men and if you're a man that transitions to be a women you should also compete against men.

Yes that's definitely the logical way to look at it.

[GG.]

Yes that would be the way I see it.

I would acknowledge it may then put those people at a potential disadvantage as they haven't (unless transitioned very early) had those hormone levels in development during puberty but unfortunately not all of life's unfairness can be equalised.

I would say it is the lesser of two evils as that way as it puts a very small number of people at a competitive disadvantage in one particular arena rather than parachuting someone in at the top that dominates all below them and voids the concept of gender segregated sport.

[ZedLeg]

parachuting someone in at the top that dominates all below them and voids the concept of gender segregated sport.

Has that ever happened?

[GG.]

You just gave the example of the wrestling in the US above. It's not necessarily elite level that is the issue.

[ZedLeg]

I think I know the case you mean though and its the other way round - XY male. If so, he should be allowed to compete against other biological males. I can't see the justification not.

Nope his name is Mack Begg and he’s female to male trans.

[GG.]

Yeh and he's taking supplements but in a legal case against him the existing law classed them as 'medical' rather than performance enhancing as they're administered by a physician.

Pretty clear on that basis that he should have been excluded but used the above loophole and then goes off his birth certificate gender which is determinative for the sports governing body in the state in question.

[ZedLeg]

He wants to wrestle men though, it’s the rules that won’t let him.

[Broccers]

Wow this openned a can of worms.

A mate of mine is now a woman. I still call him Mike as can't change my way of thinking. Had his bits chopped in Thailand to form a vag. Unfortunately it went wrong and he pooed out of his new fanny so had to go back for a rectification.

I'm sure he goes to the ladies.