Toilet definition

[ZedLeg]

Who cares?

As long as they aren’t hurting anyone just let people live their lives.

[GG.]

In reality though that's not how it works is it?

It becomes an agenda and everyone must subscribe to that viewpoint or face ostracism and no-platforming.

The "well it doesn't affect anyone" can't really be said for the safety of women in mixed toilets, etc. can it?

No debate and responses of "OK Boomer" are fine, but well, I refer you to the most recent election result. You don't carry people with you with hostility instead of persuasion.

[ZedLeg]

If someone wants to attack a woman in a bathroom a sign on the door isn’t going to stop them.

The only people being ostracised are terfs because they are attacking trans people based on lies.

Times change, it’s not like trans and non binary people are a new phenomenon. People are just talking about it now, it’s the next step in bringing equality between lgbt+ and cishet people.

[GG.]

That's one viewpoint but I don't think shared by society generally.

I'm not clear that calling women like Sharron Davies or Martina Navratilova TERFS because the object to biological males competing in women's sports really cuts much ice with the general public, for example.

You can paint them as the unreasonable radicals but they really aren't (I for one would be amused to know I would be classed as a 'radical feminist' in this brave new world). You just end up alienating people - I don't think that really furthers anyones objectives to be honest.

[ZedLeg]

There’s no evidence that trans people have a general advantage in sport.

There has been the odd exceptional trans athlete but the olympics has let trans people compete since 2003 so why isn’t it dominated by trans athletes?

I don’t see anything wrong with the current rules but I’m sure they’ll evolve as time goes on.

If your feminism excludes trans women I’m going to call it like I see it.

[GG.]

They don't need to have a general advantage - just a specific one. If its unfair on a one-off basis you can't legitimise it on the basis that it doesn't skew things as a whole. Fairness is individual as well as systemic.

You can 'call it how you see it' all you like but at the end of the day its like the radical left (and even some former conservatives!) saying the tories are 'far right', when the current conservative government (well at least Boris/Javid versus May/Hammond) is to the left socially and economically of the one that preceded it. It leaves most people just scratching their heads and thinking you're reacting irrationally.

[ZedLeg]

TBH I’m not interested in what other people think about my views. You can agree with me or not, it doesn’t matter to me.

Of course it matters that there’s no general proven advantage. If you’re going to exclude people from competing on a case by case basis you’d have to include people who are genetically gifted in other ways. Should Michael Phelps have been excluded from swimming because he was perfectly built to do it?

[mik]

If your feminism excludes trans women I’m going to call it like I see it.

What if gg is a misogynist that identifies as a feminist?

[GG.]

I think on this issue I'm a feminist that doesn't identify as a radical feminist, not a misogynist thank you very much Mik

[mik]

It was just an example.

I am a perfectionist but I identify as scrappy.

[Rich B]

Cishet??! I can’t keep up!

[Swervin_Mervin]

TBH I’m not interested in what other people think about my views. You can agree with me or not, it doesn’t matter to me.

Of course it matters that there’s no general proven advantage. If you’re going to exclude people from competing on a case by case basis you’d have to include people who are genetically gifted in other ways. Should Michael Phelps have been excluded from swimming because he was perfectly built to do it?

I'd call BS on there being no proven advantage - but I'm not going to go trawling for evidence . Michael Johnson had a documentary on years ago that was looking at the effects of performance enhancing drugs on athletes. They drew a fairly clear conclusion that an athlete could be clean for years, but if they had used testosterone or steroids, then they could build muscle that they otherwise likely wouldn't have been able to. The implication was that some might choose to cheat early to then gain a career-long advantage whilst "clean".

A trans woman will have gained that advantage in the exact same way. How do you prove there's an advantage? I'd imagine that in itself is incredibly difficult - it could just be that there are shit (formerly) male athletes that would only ever have been as good as good female athletes, and that would skew any stats. The issue is when you start comparing a formerly male athlete that was of a high standard with the field of female athletes - males absolutely have a natural physiological advantage (it's that pesky testosterone again).

See Caster Semenya as another example of an athlete who "may" have an advantage over other female athletes, due to testosterone levels.

[ZedLeg]

You’re going to call bullshit on there being no proof without looking for the proof? Ok.

[Swervin_Mervin]

You’re going to call bullshit on there being no proof without looking for the proof? Ok.

I'll stick to logic

[ZedLeg]

Ok

[GG.]

You’re going to call bullshit on there being no proof without looking for the proof? Ok.

I'll stick to logic

That's not good enough. I demand proof that black is not white.

If there is no proof that being biologically male affords you an advantage then let's just abolish gendered sport altogether.

When you get down to brass tacks - that position exposes itself as ludicrous.

[Rich B]

Why does it always have to be so confrontational Zed? I’m clearly an old fart who doesn’t really get the need for endless definitions, but I’m interested to learn and have a laugh at the same time.

I’d like to Think all this will come in useful to me one day - possibly in a work situation, but from your reaction I expect I’ll just avoid even discussing or acknowledging it for fear of getting yelled at.

[Swervin_Mervin]

I've got better shit to be getting on with than this, but here's a start - top result from 1st Google

[PaulJ]

Ok boomers

in all seriousness - I’m not a Boomer or a millennial (neither are you?), but do you actually think 70 genders are actually required Or is it people just trying to get attention?

I find it unacceptable that no-one ever thinks to include the MGBGTs.

[Carlos]

There’s no evidence that trans people have a general advantage in sport.

That's a daft statement, there may be no studies or evidence that trans people have an advantage but there's plenty of evidence that men typically have an advantage over women in pretty much any speed/strength discipline.

You don't need to be a doctor to understand the effect higher levels of testosterone alone can have.