Bye Bye Boris!

[DeskJockey]

Remember you're voting for your constituency MP, not for Boris or Jeremy. Unless you happen to live in Uxbridge and South Ruislip or Islington North. And in Uxbridge you have a wonderfully large choice on the ballot paper: https://democraticdashboard.com/constit ... th-ruislip - I fancy the chances of Lord Buckethead, myself.

Lord Binhead. He had to change it because of some dispute around a copyright.

Baron Binface, isn't it?

Count Binface. Well done us

[GG.]

As I said on Twitter yesterday, I think for a lot of people it’s not a question of who you’re voting for, more who you’re voting against.

Remember you're voting for your constituency MP, not for Boris or Jeremy. Unless you happen to live in Uxbridge and South Ruislip or Islington North. And in Uxbridge you have a wonderfully large choice on the ballot paper: https://democraticdashboard.com/constit ... th-ruislip - I fancy the chances of Lord Buckethead, myself.

I’m not voting against Boris. I’m voting against the Conservatives. My constituency changed from Tory to Labour at the last election. I’m going to hold my nose and vote Labour this time to try and ensure the Cons don’t win the seat back.

Without being antagonistic about it - I don't really understand the tactic - what overall parliamentary outcome are you trying to achieve?

There isn't any option other than Corbyn as PM (whether alone or in a coalition with the SNP - which almost certaintly would see Scotland secede too) that would get you a second referendum and you'd be essentially swapping the possibility of a second referendum going your way for 5 years of a Corbyn administration (and possibly the risk of Scotland leaving the UK). Maybe that's what you're looking for but seems to be voting for the certainty of something you don't want for the possibility of getting something you do want. Unfortunately I think Brexit hysteria is making remain voters opt for several things they find awful just to try and get a shot of us remaining.

Or is the hope that you bring about another minority Conservative government that ploughs us back into the current mess? Where that ends up is uncertain but it didn't bring about a second referendum in Autumn 2019. I'd wager it puts us back into another election in under 6 months and has Corbyn still at the helm of Labour whereas a majority for the Conservatives would see him go.

[Sundayjumper]

I think I’m going to have to vote Lib Dem, as they’re the only main party with a clear anti-Brexit stance. Bracknell is a conservative stronghold though, so it’s just hoping to send a message rather than expecting to see a Lib Dem MP elected.

(our previous MP was one of the Conservatives that defected to Lib Dem)

(and our new Conservative candidate seems OK, it’s not a vote against him personally)

[GG.]

Hilarious interview by Andrew Neil of Jeremy Corbyn last night.

Hopefully Boris Johnson will have the courage to appear on the same format. I doubt he'll fare much better.

I didn't catch last night's but did catch the Sturgeon one. Very amusing seeing her and her SNP nonsense being held up to proper scrutiny and torn to bits.

I'd like to see Johnson take up the gauntlet as well, but I suspect his approach would be to bluff and joke his way through. Not that I'd expect Neill to give him the room to do so too much.

Boris will almost certainly have to. It would be too much of a loss of face to duck it.

It would be untrue to say I enjoyed watching it as hearing Jeremy Corbyn talk about any of his harebrained socialist crap is deeply worrying.

The anti-semitism parts probably won't have really damaged him much further as I think its clear who and what he really is on that point (an enabler). It was good to see him dismantled on the claims that no one earning under 80k would see their tax bill rise, despite the fact he will inevitably hammer people with a load of non-PAYE taxes such as dividend payments, etc. That's also just assuming his costings are correct and that he doesn't need to scramble to raise more cash from everywhere else.

Not being able to say he would authorise a strike on an ISIL leader where arrest was not an option will also not please much of the British public or assure them he isn't a risk to national security.

[GG.]

I think I’m going to have to vote Lib Dem, as they’re the only main party with a clear anti-Brexit stance. Bracknell is a conservative stronghold though, so it’s just hoping to send a message rather than expecting to see a Lib Dem MP elected.

(our previous MP was one of the Conservatives that defected to Lib Dem)

(and our new Conservative candidate seems OK, it’s not a vote against him personally)

But protest votes are only of any worth if you think that it would prompt the person that does win to think "wow, 'x' got a lot of votes last time, I best change my stance to ape them otherwise i'll lose next time". There's precisely no chance of any Tory MP (or Boris as PM) that wins doing that so you're really just running (a reasonably high) risk of a LD MP, no Con majority and Corbyn PM for no real upside I can see.

[ZedLeg]

Remember you're voting for your constituency MP, not for Boris or Jeremy. Unless you happen to live in Uxbridge and South Ruislip or Islington North. And in Uxbridge you have a wonderfully large choice on the ballot paper: https://democraticdashboard.com/constit ... th-ruislip - I fancy the chances of Lord Buckethead, myself.

I’m not voting against Boris. I’m voting against the Conservatives. My constituency changed from Tory to Labour at the last election. I’m going to hold my nose and vote Labour this time to try and ensure the Cons don’t win the seat back.

Without being antagonistic about it - I don't really understand the tactic - what overall parliamentary outcome are you trying to achieve?

There isn't any option other than Corbyn as PM (whether alone or in a coalition with the SNP - which almost certaintly would see Scotland secede too) that would get you a second referendum and you'd be essentially swapping the possibility of a second referendum going your way for 5 years of a Corbyn administration (and possibly the risk of Scotland leaving the UK). Maybe that's what you're looking for but seems to be voting for the certainty of something you don't want for the possibility of getting something you do want. Unfortunately I think Brexit hysteria is making remain voters opt for several things they find awful just to try and get a shot of us remaining.

Or is the hope that you bring about another minority Conservative government that ploughs us back into the current mess? Where that ends up is uncertain but it didn't bring about a second referendum in Autumn 2019. I'd wager it puts us back into another election in under 6 months and has Corbyn still at the helm of Labour whereas a majority for the Conservatives would see him go.

Whatever it takes to not have Boris as PM tbh.

There's a lot of argument among the left between Scotland and England just now as a lot of Scottish people will not vote for Labour as Scottish Labour are only just better than the tories.

[GG.]

But, so far as I'm aware, you would vote for (or would not mind) Corbyn as PM so your position or desire is not relevant to what I'm talking about.

The question is exclusively for people who do not want a Corbyn PM but are voting tactically to stop Brexit.

[ZedLeg]

In a 50 /50 vote between Boris and Corbyn I guess I would but I wouldn't vote for Labour at this point even if I wasn't in Scotland. I don't know who would be a good PM at this point. All the high profile Tories are awful and Labour is becoming a bit of a cult of personality.

Break the whole thing down and rebuild as a congress .

[NotoriousREV]

Remember you're voting for your constituency MP, not for Boris or Jeremy. Unless you happen to live in Uxbridge and South Ruislip or Islington North. And in Uxbridge you have a wonderfully large choice on the ballot paper: https://democraticdashboard.com/constit ... th-ruislip - I fancy the chances of Lord Buckethead, myself.

I’m not voting against Boris. I’m voting against the Conservatives. My constituency changed from Tory to Labour at the last election. I’m going to hold my nose and vote Labour this time to try and ensure the Cons don’t win the seat back.

Without being antagonistic about it - I don't really understand the tactic - what overall parliamentary outcome are you trying to achieve?

There isn't any option other than Corbyn as PM (whether alone or in a coalition with the SNP - which almost certaintly would see Scotland secede too) that would get you a second referendum and you'd be essentially swapping the possibility of a second referendum going your way for 5 years of a Corbyn administration (and possibly the risk of Scotland leaving the UK). Maybe that's what you're looking for but seems to be voting for the certainty of something you don't want for the possibility of getting something you do want. Unfortunately I think Brexit hysteria is making remain voters opt for several things they find awful just to try and get a shot of us remaining.

Or is the hope that you bring about another minority Conservative government that ploughs us back into the current mess? Where that ends up is uncertain but it didn't bring about a second referendum in Autumn 2019. I'd wager it puts us back into another election in under 6 months and has Corbyn still at the helm of Labour whereas a majority for the Conservatives would see him go.

The Conservatives are awful and need to be out of power, they've fucked up this country over the last 9 years with austerity and Brexit. I don't particularly want a Corbyn government, but I'm prepared to put up with one for 5 years in order to not have the Tories in charge. With the Tories we get a 12 month delay and then back to a No Deal crisis at the end of 2020. With Labour, there's a chance of something else. I don't "want Brexit done". If we Brexit, we're fucked for a generation. If Magic Grandpa gets in, we're only fucked for 5 years, at worst.

This is an electoral "trolley dilemma". How many people do you want to see run over?

[Simon]

I understand your sentiment Dave, but if Magic Grandpa gets in we're fucked for more than 5 years. Look at the level of debt he'll put the country in for starters. That'll take a couple of decades to sort out, at least.

[NotoriousREV]

I understand your sentiment Dave, but if Magic Grandpa gets in we're fucked for more than 5 years. Look at the level of debt he'll put the country in for starters. That'll take a couple of decades to sort out, at least.

Not true. If you look at the actual data, there's next to no difference between the Conservatives and Labour in debt vs spending. In fact, Labour have a record of paying down more debt and doing it faster than the Tories. It's a complete myth that Labour go on a spending spree and the Conservatives are frugal.

[speedingfine]

I understand your sentiment Dave, but if Magic Grandpa gets in we're fucked for more than 5 years. Look at the level of debt he'll put the country in for starters. That'll take a couple of decades to sort out, at least.

Not true. If you look at the actual data, there's next to no difference between the Conservatives and Labour in debt vs spending. In fact, Labour have a record of paying down more debt and doing it faster than the Tories. It's a complete myth that Labour go on a spending spree and the Conservatives are frugal.

Assume it's the past your talking about there Dave...

[Simon]

I understand your sentiment Dave, but if Magic Grandpa gets in we're fucked for more than 5 years. Look at the level of debt he'll put the country in for starters. That'll take a couple of decades to sort out, at least.

Not true. If you look at the actual data, there's next to no difference between the Conservatives and Labour in debt vs spending. In fact, Labour have a record of paying down more debt and doing it faster than the Tories. It's a complete myth that Labour go on a spending spree and the Conservatives are frugal.

Sure, let's have a look at the data used to make your claim please?

And secondly, if you take both manifestos at their word, then by Labours own volition they're gonna increase borrowing massively to pay for their 'free everything' plan.

[Swervin_Mervin]

The Conservatives are awful and need to be out of power, they've fucked up this country over the last 9 years with austerity .

That would be the austerity measures that all 3 main parties had in their 2010 manifestos? The only difference was the Conservative manifesto outlined they would commence austerity measures with almost immediate effect, rather than 6/12mo down the line as Labour and the Lib Dems outlined.

Everyone that uses this against the Tories always conveniently forgets this fact.

[NotoriousREV]

I understand your sentiment Dave, but if Magic Grandpa gets in we're fucked for more than 5 years. Look at the level of debt he'll put the country in for starters. That'll take a couple of decades to sort out, at least.

Not true. If you look at the actual data, there's next to no difference between the Conservatives and Labour in debt vs spending. In fact, Labour have a record of paying down more debt and doing it faster than the Tories. It's a complete myth that Labour go on a spending spree and the Conservatives are frugal.

Assume it's the past your talking about there Dave...

No, I'm talking about 2156

[NotoriousREV]

I understand your sentiment Dave, but if Magic Grandpa gets in we're fucked for more than 5 years. Look at the level of debt he'll put the country in for starters. That'll take a couple of decades to sort out, at least.

Not true. If you look at the actual data, there's next to no difference between the Conservatives and Labour in debt vs spending. In fact, Labour have a record of paying down more debt and doing it faster than the Tories. It's a complete myth that Labour go on a spending spree and the Conservatives are frugal.

Sure, let's have a look at the data used to make your claim please?

And secondly, if you take both manifestos at their word, then by Labours own volition they're gonna increase borrowing massively to pay for their 'free everything' plan.

Knock yourself out: http://www.primeeconomics.org/articles/ ... of-labours

Government spending stimulates the economy, and when you have your own currency and print your own money debt really isn't a problem. Government debt isn't anything like personal debt.

Edit to add: Labour's spending plans only bring is in line with countries like France and Germany, so it's not exactly unprecedented. Our spending is well under the EU average.

[NotoriousREV]

The Conservatives are awful and need to be out of power, they've fucked up this country over the last 9 years with austerity .

That would be the austerity measures that all 3 main parties had in their 2010 manifestos? The only difference was the Conservative manifesto outlined they would commence austerity measures with almost immediate effect, rather than 6/12mo down the line as Labour and the Lib Dems outlined.

Everyone that uses this against the Tories always conveniently forgets this fact.

I have no allegiance to any party but only the Tories were in power (OK, the LibDems "helped" a bit) so we don't know how long any other party would've carried on with austerity, or even if they'd have cut quite so deeply.

[Swervin_Mervin]

The Conservatives are awful and need to be out of power, they've fucked up this country over the last 9 years with austerity .

That would be the austerity measures that all 3 main parties had in their 2010 manifestos? The only difference was the Conservative manifesto outlined they would commence austerity measures with almost immediate effect, rather than 6/12mo down the line as Labour and the Lib Dems outlined.

Everyone that uses this against the Tories always conveniently forgets this fact.

I have no allegiance to any party but only the Tories were in power (OK, the LibDems "helped" a bit) so we don't know how long any other party would've carried on with austerity, or even if they'd have cut quite so deeply.

IIRC the Conservatives pledged a shorter term to deliver us back to surplus, but they did all vow to take us back to a surplus, so presumably the others planned to cut less deep but for longer. I've no doubt they would've caved after a couple of years of hardship tho, especially Labour given they swelled the public sector so much and it was they that moaned the loudest.

[NotoriousREV]

Not true. If you look at the actual data, there's next to no difference between the Conservatives and Labour in debt vs spending. In fact, Labour have a record of paying down more debt and doing it faster than the Tories. It's a complete myth that Labour go on a spending spree and the Conservatives are frugal.

Sure, let's have a look at the data used to make your claim please?

And secondly, if you take both manifestos at their word, then by Labours own volition they're gonna increase borrowing massively to pay for their 'free everything' plan.

Knock yourself out: http://www.primeeconomics.org/articles/ ... of-labours

Government spending stimulates the economy, and when you have your own currency and print your own money debt really isn't a problem. Government debt isn't anything like personal debt.

Edit to add: Labour's spending plans only bring is in line with countries like France and Germany, so it's not exactly unprecedented. Our spending is well under the EU average.

I also did a bit more digging using figures from the ONS website:

On average, since 1955, quarterly GDP growth has been 0.606%. For all Conservative governments, the average has been 0.612%. For all Labour governments the average has been 0.596%. So basically no real difference (albeit slightly in favour of the Conservatives).

To round it out, I also took a look at the average growth of the economy under a Tory or Labour government (i.e. between general elections, what was the average growth by party?). On average, GDP grew by 9% under each Labour government and 8.57% under each Conservative government. So again, no real difference.

[Simon]

Not true. If you look at the actual data, there's next to no difference between the Conservatives and Labour in debt vs spending. In fact, Labour have a record of paying down more debt and doing it faster than the Tories. It's a complete myth that Labour go on a spending spree and the Conservatives are frugal.

Sure, let's have a look at the data used to make your claim please?

And secondly, if you take both manifestos at their word, then by Labours own volition they're gonna increase borrowing massively to pay for their 'free everything' plan.

Knock yourself out: http://www.primeeconomics.org/articles/ ... of-labours

Thanks, and thanks for confirming what I'd suspected.

Essentially, yes, the debt is higher under the Conservatives, but in each case that's only because each Labour administration runs up a large deficit that the Conservatives then have to reduce again. I've seen McDonald and Corbyn make the same claims in the HoC. Those claims don't stand up to scrutiny.

In general, Labour inherit a good or improving economy and proceed to spend and run up a deficit.

In general, Conservatives inherit a large annual deficit then that adds to the debt as years go on.

Oh, and all this time the Conservatives then cop the blame for trying to reduce spending (debt) and balance the books again.

Do you have data that shows that at the end of their respective terms that the annual deficit for Labour is smaller than the Conservatives, on average?