Bye Bye Boris!

[Orange Cola]

I won’t believe it till it happens!

Come back at the end of the week...

[Pete_]

I really don't understand why both main parties are pushing for a GE instead of a referendum on the deal which clearly would be a much more effective way of sorting this mess out.

[Rich B]

I really don't understand why both main parties are pushing for a GE instead of a referendum on the deal which clearly would be a much more effective way of sorting this mess out.

Whats the alternative option to the deal in this referendum? No deal?

[Orange Cola]

I really don't understand why both main parties are pushing for a GE instead of a referendum on the deal which clearly would be a much more effective way of sorting this mess out.

Whats the alternative option to the deal in this referendum? No deal?

Power comes before actually doing their jobs to serve the nation best, nothing new there.

[dinny_g]

Irish media reporting the 3 month extension has been agreed...

[GG.]

Agreed by Varadkar on behalf of Ireland. No sign yet that its agreed by Macron who is pushing an extension of days not weeks. Any failure to agree unanimously means the council will have to convene in person and extension can't be done by letter.

Interesting JC and BJ are meeting to discuss what length of time would be acceptable to Labour for a revised programme motion.

ETA: Again, annoying how even the President of the European Parliament is misstating the position: "After the vote of the British Parliament to allow more time to examine details of the withdrawal agreement and Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s decision to pause the bill following the vote, the British government’s request for an extension until January 31 remains on the table,"

Its one of detail but it still gives a materially different impression to the more accurate "following the pausing of the bill on account of the failure of the commons to agree a timeline".

[Beany]

Well, that's an....interesting interpretation of events. here, I've fixed it for you.

Its one of detail but it still gives a materially different impression to the more accurate "following the pausing of the bill on account of the commons rightfully defeating him in a vote to try to push the bill through without suitable scrutiny, given it's massive scope".

Boris chose to try to force it, he lost, and while he 'had no choice' but to pause it, that falls completely on him for not realising (or knowing damned well and trying to turn it into a tabloid headline) just how badly parliament wants to actually look at the details of the bill that will lay the basis for the next 50 years of the countries future.

You really have to be reaching to find a problem with this, honestly..

[Nefarious]

I really don't understand why both main parties are pushing for a GE instead of a referendum on the deal which clearly would be a much more effective way of sorting this mess out.

Because, right here, right now, it would be a bloodbath for both Tories and Labour. The likely result would be a hung parliament, with Farage holding a not-insignificant number of seats.

Undoubtedly, if a GE happens before we "get Brexit done", the LibDems and the Farage party will eat heavily into both Labour and Tory votes. Farage will probably take more from the Tories than the LibDems take from Labour, but presumably the Tories feel their in a better position to come to some sort of DUP-style cash-for-supply-and-confidence deal with Farage afterwards (whereas Corbyn and Swinson are too ideologically far apart to form any kind of meaningful collation).

IMO, the result of a pre-Chrismas GE would be a very similar parliamentary stalemate as now in terms of Brexit and Remain, but with far greater numbers of intransigent players, far greater power granted to the minority players (based, for example, on whatever promises Boris has to make Farage), and ultimately, even if a Brexit solution can be found, 5 more years of a Parliament dominated by essentially one-issue extremists.

[Gavin]

I suspect a Brexit Party presence at Westminster would push Scotland further towards Independence. Just look at Tories voting not to protect the NHS from US firms to know the real reasons behind this whole shit storm, personal greed. An entire cabinet made up of immoral incompetents.

[Pete_]

I really don't understand why both main parties are pushing for a GE instead of a referendum on the deal which clearly would be a much more effective way of sorting this mess out.

Because, right here, right now, it would be a bloodbath for both Tories and Labour. The likely result would be a hung parliament, with Farage holding a not-insignificant number of seats.

Undoubtedly, if a GE happens before we "get Brexit done", the LibDems and the Farage party will eat heavily into both Labour and Tory votes. Farage will probably take more from the Tories than the LibDems take from Labour, but presumably the Tories feel their in a better position to come to some sort of DUP-style cash-for-supply-and-confidence deal with Farage afterwards (whereas Corbyn and Swinson are too ideologically far apart to form any kind of meaningful collation).

IMO, the result of a pre-Chrismas GE would be a very similar parliamentary stalemate as now in terms of Brexit and Remain, but with far greater numbers of intransigent players, far greater power granted to the minority players (based, for example, on whatever promises Boris has to make Farage), and ultimately, even if a Brexit solution can be found, 5 more years of a Parliament dominated by essentially one-issue extremists.

Hence why I'm saying they should both be advocating for a referendum rather than a General Election

Although to be fair it's probably too strong to say they're both 'pushing' for a general election, but both have expressed that as being preferable to a referendum.

To answer the earlier question, I think an 'in/out' question and an 'if out then deal/no deal' would be best.... And I'm pretty sure that out with deal would come out on top.

[dinny_g]

I think it should be a 3 option Referendum…

1. Stay
2. Go with Deal
3. Go with No Deal.

Split the Brexiteers, Stay will obviously win the majority and we stay. Over and Done with it, get on with out lives.

and I voted leave...

[Nefarious]

Pete - yes, it would really have helped if I'd read your post properly

As Jobbo said a couple of pages back, even I don't see a 2nd ref as sorting the problem at this stage. There's just no positive outcome:
1) Remain strongly win - massive resentment from all those who've been whipped into a jingoistic fervor, resulting in a massive power grab by Farage, and a shift even further to the right by the Tories to try and mitigate.
2) Remain narrowly win - Lots of rows about "best of three", "project fear" etc etc, little true mandate to revoke article 50 and brush the whole sorry mess under the carpet. Ultimately, see above, and probably yet another referendum a few years down the line.
3) Leave narrowly win - basically nothing changes and the stalemate continues, possibly with a bit of a power shift towards to more hardcore brexiteers (along with all the non-brexit consequences that brings).
4) Leave strongly win - Implied mandate for total isolationism, and all the unpleasant nationalistic shit that brings, along with economic catastrophe and the subsequent blame game.

[Rich B]

Deleted.

[Rich B]

I think it should be a 3 option Referendum…

1. Stay
2. Go with Deal
3. Go with No Deal.

Split the Brexiteers, Stay will obviously win the majority and we stay. Over and Done with it, get on with out lives.

and I voted leave...

So what do you tick if you want to leave with a deal, but not this deal?

[Jobbo]

Quite amused by this from George Osborne:

[dinny_g]

I think it should be a 3 option Referendum…

1. Stay
2. Go with Deal
3. Go with No Deal.

Split the Brexiteers, Stay will obviously win the majority and we stay. Over and Done with it, get on with out lives.

and I voted leave...

So what do you tick if you want to leave with a deal, but not this deal?

fine - split the Brexiteers even further...

[NotoriousREV]

I think it should be a 3 option Referendum…

1. Stay
2. Go with Deal
3. Go with No Deal.

Split the Brexiteers, Stay will obviously win the majority and we stay. Over and Done with it, get on with out lives.

and I voted leave...

So what do you tick if you want to leave with a deal, but not this deal?

What other available deal is there that you want to vote for?

[Jobbo]

What other available deal is there that you want to vote for?

The Lisbon Treaty?

[dinny_g]

If we're going to have another referendum, Is it about time to start talking about Remain Options.

1. Remain and stay on the current trajectory for the EU. i.e. full political union
2. Remain but as a Social and Economic Union only...

[NotoriousREV]

What other available deal is there that you want to vote for?

The Lisbon Treaty?

The Lisbon Treaty or the Facebook Lisbon Treaty?