Back spasms/sciatica

[V8Granite]

So what we are saying is that personal skill counts for nothing ? A chiropractor can’t fix someone’s musculoskeletal issues?

It seems a bit closed minded to think that imo. In all parts of life there are people who are good and bad at their chosen field. It’s not waving smoke around or re-aligning shakras. It’s someone with an understanding of anatomy, common issues and their experience of them finding a fix.

If I ever hurt my back, shoulder, legs etc I certainly won’t wait weeks for a local doctors appointment, to then be referred to a physio or told to rest when I have positive experiences from friends and family with a chiropractor. I can walk down my street (luckily very close) and either learn more about the problem or hopefully fix it. If the problem persisted I would then look elsewhere. I’d rather do that off my own back than add more workload to the NHS.

I have a huge amount of respect for the NHS, my father in law would be blind without it but now his vision is better than ever, my Dad had multiple heart attaches but arrived at Papworth and was essentially fixed. He is currently sat recovering from a knee operation. He will go to physio when his final knee is fitted (he has a false one after some infection issues) and fingers crossed will be as good as possible.

Nearly every single piece of fitness, strength advice has been given to me by a non professional, just experienced people. To write someone’s knowledge off instantly is silly imo, a strange way to look at things. Certainly not all physicians, surgeons, doctors are equal so why would any other profession be.

Dave!

[Nefarious]

OK, I can chip in on this one, having been through a long process for fixing a long term neck injury, and then subsequently a knee and arm injury.

Physiotherapists are proper medical professionals, but they are fundamentally focused on muscular recovery. If your problem/injury is down to damage to muscular or associated connective tissue, they'll probably offer the most effective rehabilitative treatment.

Osteopaths are also proper medical professionals, but their discipline priorities skeletal alignment as the route to curing movement problems. If your problem is due to poor habitual use of combinations of muscles and connective tissue (possibly as a consequential problem to a muscular injury), these are the guys for you.

Chiropractors make it up as they go along. Some can be very good/effective, others not, depending on their own personal treatment philosophy. Mrs Nef was very effectively treated for lower back pain by a chiropractor (who also happens to have been previously employed by the Scottish rugby team), but basically the treatment she was given was osteopathy (primarily exercises to stretch some muscle/tissue groups while strengthening other groups to encourage more even load sharing). However, because it is totally unregulated as a discipline, others are totally free to let their treatment philosophy drift into the world of crystals and chakras. Therefore as a group, they can get in Dara O' Briain's sack with the homeopaths and faith healers.

To provide a practical example - I've been going through 9 months of arm/elbow pain. Suspected tendonitis from climbing.
The physiotherapists' solution is lots of muscular training at the point of the pain (backwards bicep curls with 12kg dumbbells, downwards climbing, etc etc) - the thinking being that if a particular activity has damaged tissue, then make that tissue super-strong so it can cope with the demands being put upon it. It's the "brute force" approach.
The osteopath's solution is various shoulder stretches and a little resistive training of the upper back and trapezius muscles (which act as stabilisers for arm movements). The philosophy behind it is that basically all bodily movements are compound ones, and if you can co-ordinate the various muscles and connective tissue groups to work together, then the loads on any one component are greatly reduced and the overall system is more effective (akin to making sure a tug-of-war team are all facing the same direction).
The chiroprator's solution (not that I saw one in this particular episode) would probably have something to do with posture, and involve some brutal manipulation of a totally unrelated part of the body (unless they were a decent "chiropractor", who was actually using the physio or osteo philosophies).

I soldiered on with the physio solution for 8 months, and found some improvement to the day-to-day pain level and a greater improvement to pain levels while doing the antagonising movements. Overall, I'd place the overall success at maybe 30%. With the osteo solution, there was an almost total cure of day-to-day pain within a week of starting the exercises, and within three weeks there was a 70-80% improvement in pain levels while actually climbing. Overall success - 90-odd% IMO.
If I'd gone to a chiropractor, I would have either ended up with one of the above solutions (or some combination of them), or no solution at all (plus perhaps some bruised ribs from being knelt on).

[Nefarious]

Oh, and Rev - anecdotal evidence does not equal data, and you cannot positively support a theory with anecdotal evidence alone. However, contradictory anecdotal evidence provides very strong support to disprove theories.

[NotoriousREV]

So what we are saying is that personal skill counts for nothing ? A chiropractor can’t fix someone’s musculoskeletal issues?

No. I’m saying that a physio will be more effective, more of the time.

Also, stop just focusing on the back massage piece. Chiropractors claim to be able to cure all sorts of stuff through their practice. They claim to be able to fix colic, asthma, migraines and have even claimed to be able to cure autism.

The only parts of chiropractic practice that have proven to have any medical benefit is for lower back pain, and that is no better than a massage by anyone, and is less effective than a physio. I don’t know how to word it any clearer.

[NotoriousREV]

Oh, and Rev - anecdotal evidence does not equal data, and you cannot positively support a theory with anecdotal evidence alone. However, contradictory anecdotal evidence provides very strong support to disprove theories.

Bollocks. To disprove a theory you collect data.

[Rich B]

They claim to be able to fix colic, asthma, migraines and have even claimed to be able to cure autism.

The only parts of chiropractic practice that have proven to have any medical benefit is for lower back pain, and that is no better than a massage by anyone, and is less effective than a physio. I don’t know how to word it any clearer.

this is a thread about sciatica/back spasms, not autism.

[NotoriousREV]

They claim to be able to fix colic, asthma, migraines and have even claimed to be able to cure autism.

The only parts of chiropractic practice that have proven to have any medical benefit is for lower back pain, and that is no better than a massage by anyone, and is less effective than a physio. I don’t know how to word it any clearer.

this is a thread about sciatica/back spasms, not autism.

Right. But again, for those of you seemingly unable to read or comprehend: according to medical studies neither osteopathy nor chiropractic is any more effective for lower back pain than a straightforward massage delivered by anyone, and are less effective than physiotherapy.

I know you think you’re arguing with me, but you’re not. You’re arguing against the medical evidence, I’m just pointing it out.

There’s a reason that NICE and the NHS refer to osteopathy and chiropractic as “Complementary and Alternative Therapies”. If they were proven to be effective, they’d just be called Therapies, like physiotherapy is.

In fact, NICE dropped all reference to osteopathy and chiropractic in its 2010 update to the treatment protocol for lower back pain, at the same time as dropping acupuncture as a treatment. All due to lack of evidence.

[NotoriousREV]

Oh, and Nef: What your describing there is a poor physio taking a too narrow approach versus an osteopath using good physio techniques.

To add my own anecdote, when I had physio for a lower back injury, my physio also addressed my pelvic tilt, posture issues and a leg length imbalance. So physios absolutely do address whole-body issues.

@Dave!: you know you can see a physio privately too, right? You don’t need to go to a quack to be seen privately.

[NotoriousREV]

Rich, have you/will you be vaccinating your kid?

[Marv]

How is your back at the moment, Foz?

[NotoriousREV]

How is your back at the moment, Foz?

Stay on topic!

[Marv]

How is your back at the moment, Foz?

Stay on topic!

I was hoping he'd reply saying he's been to a chiropractor, and his back is now better than ever

[Mito Man]

So the main thing to take away from this thread is that pain is cyclical and the best way to break that cycle is to go on a week of drug fuelled hooliganism - preferably coke and hookers.

[NotoriousREV]

How is your back at the moment, Foz?

Stay on topic!

I was hoping he'd reply saying he's been to a chiropractor, and his back is now better than ever

[mik]

I have a good friend who is a chiropractor. Many years ago I asked him to put a hex on Rev’s back - which is why he had the pain in the first place. FACT.

[Nefarious]

Oh, and Rev - anecdotal evidence does not equal data, and you cannot positively support a theory with anecdotal evidence alone. However, contradictory anecdotal evidence provides very strong support to disprove theories.

Bollocks. To disprove a theory you collect data.

If your theory is "all cats are black", one example of a black cat does not sufficiently support the theory. If you gather data, and find 50 out of 50 black cats, your theory is looking strong. However, I only need to show you one example of a non-black cat and your theory is comprehensively disproved.

[NotoriousREV]

I have a good friend who is a chiropractor. Many years ago I asked him to put a hex on Rev’s back - which is why he had the pain in the first place. FACT.

That’s only true if he also happened to be an inattentive taxi driver

[NotoriousREV]

Oh, and Rev - anecdotal evidence does not equal data, and you cannot positively support a theory with anecdotal evidence alone. However, contradictory anecdotal evidence provides very strong support to disprove theories.

Bollocks. To disprove a theory you collect data.

If your theory is "all cats are black", one example of a black cat does not sufficiently support the theory. If you gather data, and find 50 out of 50 black cats, your theory is looking strong. However, I only need to show you one example of a non-black cat and your theory is comprehensively disproved.

I agree. Your data would be having an actual non-black cat or a fully documented, corroborated sighting of said non-black cat.

However, you wouldn’t dismiss the theory because someone says “oh hey, I once saw a non-black cat”, you’d wait for the evidence.

[JLv3.0]

Oh, and Rev - anecdotal evidence does not equal data, and you cannot positively support a theory with anecdotal evidence alone. However, contradictory anecdotal evidence provides very strong support to disprove theories.

Bollocks. To disprove a theory you collect data.

If your theory is "all cats are black", one example of a black cat does not sufficiently support the theory. If you gather data, and find 50 out of 50 black cats, your theory is looking strong. However, I only need to show you one example of a non-black cat and your theory is comprehensively disproved.

edit - oh ;(

[NotoriousREV]

How about an anecdote from an actual osteopath, shared by an Professor of Complementary Medicine?

https://edzardernst.com/2018/11/osteopa ... -up-to-be/