Bye bye Theresa

[Rich B]

Taken me nearly an hour to catch-up on this thread. Worth doing though.

I voted to leave. I so wish I hadn't. Even though I've seen endless posts on Facebook regarding the things we've lost since joining the EU, I cannot image we're alone in that and we've equally gained, too.

Looking back, my memory suggests the information I had available at the time (which represents all which I was able to amass and understand at the time, considering how busy life is and the fact that Brexit, as a thing, occupied my mind along with probably 200 other items) persuaded me to vote leave. My honest view at the time? I think I thought the UK needed to go it alone. Remember, that was the view based on what I'd heard, read, talked about etc along with 200 other things going in my life at the time. I didn't have the time to spend 2 days solid going over all the arguments. And in any case, I never remember receiving anything through the post to even prompt that argument, one way or another. I remember a strange campaign in many ways, on TV all the time, politicians at it constantly, but actual information being thin on the ground, no obvious canvassing, all very distant.

As stupid as it sounds, given the grave importance of it, I voted leave because it almost came down a coin toss, based on what little info I had been fed (yes, really) and that which I'd been able to find for myself (very little). And probably, if I'm honest, unconscious bias or something akin to it, informed by my upbringing and general environment. My parents, bless them, were never very forward thinking or progressive. Old fashioned, basically. So I defaulted to type when asked to vote in the absence of anything convincing to the contrary. Probably the only time my gut feeling has been wrong. And it's not the case that I always followed my father, for example, a strong character in the family home, growing up. He always voted Labour. I've always voted Conservative.

None of that helps, although one wonders how many countless thousands 40-somethings were in the same boat. The comment about educated types not being the ones chanting "leave, leave, leave" is spot on. I wasn't convinced when I voted. I was even less convinced the morning after. And now I know it's the worst decision I've ever made.

I have spoken to so many other leave voters who now say the same thing. That's why it either needs cancelling completely or another referendum.

That’s not how voting works though.

[Brannen]

Whereabouts in Europe do they imagine Syria to reside?

I saw this video on YouTube the other day, and towards the end it mentions around Turkey joining the EU, but used very similar colours to highlight Syria / Iraq etc. Which gives the appearance they're all the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYonSZ8s3_o

Video's worth a watch as well.

[Zonda_]

Taken me nearly an hour to catch-up on this thread. Worth doing though.

I voted to leave. I so wish I hadn't. Even though I've seen endless posts on Facebook regarding the things we've lost since joining the EU, I cannot image we're alone in that and we've equally gained, too.

Looking back, my memory suggests the information I had available at the time (which represents all which I was able to amass and understand at the time, considering how busy life is and the fact that Brexit, as a thing, occupied my mind along with probably 200 other items) persuaded me to vote leave. My honest view at the time? I think I thought the UK needed to go it alone. Remember, that was the view based on what I'd heard, read, talked about etc along with 200 other things going in my life at the time. I didn't have the time to spend 2 days solid going over all the arguments. And in any case, I never remember receiving anything through the post to even prompt that argument, one way or another. I remember a strange campaign in many ways, on TV all the time, politicians at it constantly, but actual information being thin on the ground, no obvious canvassing, all very distant.

As stupid as it sounds, given the grave importance of it, I voted leave because it almost came down a coin toss, based on what little info I had been fed (yes, really) and that which I'd been able to find for myself (very little). And probably, if I'm honest, unconscious bias or something akin to it, informed by my upbringing and general environment. My parents, bless them, were never very forward thinking or progressive. Old fashioned, basically. So I defaulted to type when asked to vote in the absence of anything convincing to the contrary. Probably the only time my gut feeling has been wrong. And it's not the case that I always followed my father, for example, a strong character in the family home, growing up. He always voted Labour. I've always voted Conservative.

None of that helps, although one wonders how many countless thousands 40-somethings were in the same boat. The comment about educated types not being the ones chanting "leave, leave, leave" is spot on. I wasn't convinced when I voted. I was even less convinced the morning after. And now I know it's the worst decision I've ever made.

I have spoken to so many other leave voters who now say the same thing. That's why it either needs cancelling completely or another referendum.

That’s not how voting works though.

Indeed, in a vote people are normally given the facts of what they are voting for in order to make an informed decision. That didn't happen.

[Rich B]

I have spoken to so many other leave voters who now say the same thing. That's why it either needs cancelling completely or another referendum.

That’s not how voting works though.

Indeed, in a vote people are normally given the facts of what they are voting for in order to make an informed decision. That didn't happen.

No one even knows the facts now, several years later - it’s not like choosing to wear red or blue socks.

Ultimately, if people didn’t understand what they were voting for, they shouldn’t be voting to change to it.

[NotoriousREV]

Anyway, I' must do some research to back up / debunk my feeling that we're not as influential in the Eu as we think. There must be statistics available on Tabled Amendments vs Approved Amendments etc.

Here be dragons!

So the argument you're about to use goes like this: since 2004 (IIRC), we are the country who has "lost" the most number of votes in the EU. Therefore, it stands to reason that we are not influential because we lose a lot.

So, it follows logically that the table of countries who lose the vote most often, must also be a table of the least influential countries, does it not? Except, number 2 in that list is Germany, who, we are told by Brexiteers are in full control of the EU.

I would respectfully suggest that "number of times a country lost the vote" is not a reliable measure of influence.

I would also respectfully suggest that if we can't show our influence within our local trading bloc, we probably shouldn't chance our arm at going global on our own.

[Jobbo]

A red, white and blue one please.

Done.

The moon is missing

[JLv3.0]

Stars present and correct though. Vote Leave! Or Remain!

[Swervin_Mervin]

I have spoken to so many other leave voters who now say the same thing. That's why it either needs cancelling completely or another referendum.

That’s not how voting works though.

Indeed, in a vote people are normally given the facts of what they are voting for in order to make an informed decision. That didn't happen.

Do they f**k. They're fed a bunch of lies and false promises that are reneged upon by whichever party gets in. This is no different to every GE that has happened in the last couple of decades or more. The majority of the public voting on the basis of either some stupid historical loyalty/allegiance or the bull that's spread by the parties in the run up to a vote has been influencing all our futures for a very long time.

[JLv3.0]

It's never been as openly based on nothing as this though.

[Swervin_Mervin]

It's never been as openly based on nothing as this though.

I beg to differ. Besides, why should that matter? In a democracy people are allowed to vote for whoever the they like for whatever reason they want to. There are myriad reasons why people on both sides voted the way they did, and arguably a huge proportion on each side of the vote that didn't apply a huge amount of thought/research.

[Rich B]

It's never been as openly based on nothing as this though.

I beg to differ. Besides, why should that matter? In a democracy people are allowed to vote for whoever the they like for whatever reason they want to. There are myriad reasons why people on both sides voted the way they did, and arguably a huge proportion on each side of the vote that didn't apply a huge amount of thought/research.

Exactly. Whilst I’d love for Zonda to be right and it all goes away with another vote, the fact is, there was a vote.

No one will ever have ALL the facts until it is done and dusted.

[Richard]

But we are going to send all the Muslims back to Africa, right?

[240PP]

I voted to leave. I so wish I hadn't. Even though I've seen endless posts on Facebook regarding the things we've lost since joining the EU

Facebook, really.

[Mito Man]

I’ve only lived in the South East where immigration has been good, immigrants coming in were hard working and everyone got on well with each other. I think a lot of the Midlands have this problem with now second and third generation gangs of asian descent who are all born in the UK and were never from the EU so brexit won’t solve that problem. The same thing applies to the scooter gangs of London.

I’m more worried about the country as a whole if Brexit does go ahead. A 10% rise in the price of goods and services will probably fuck over millions of people and push them to poverty in less affluent counties and I’m not sure how quickly we can respond to that by increasing manufacturing or something else to make up for it. And how many decades it will take to get living standards back to where they are now.

Also I’ll add that racism is rife amongst old people, I wasn’t aware of how bad it was till I spent months in hospital but the shit that a lot of the old guys said when the nurses left was disgraceful. Most of them were from the Philippines on work visas here but the ward of old chaps I was in with were convinced that by voting leave they would get their British nurses back - such was their lack of knowledge.

[Richard]

British nurses for British racists

[dinny_g]

Anyway, I' must do some research to back up / debunk my feeling that we're not as influential in the Eu as we think. There must be statistics available on Tabled Amendments vs Approved Amendments etc.

Here be dragons!

So the argument you're about to use goes like this: since 2004 (IIRC), we are the country who has "lost" the most number of votes in the EU. Therefore, it stands to reason that we are not influential because we lose a lot.

So, it follows logically that the table of countries who lose the vote most often, must also be a table of the least influential countries, does it not? Except, number 2 in that list is Germany, who, we are told by Brexiteers are in full control of the EU.

I would respectfully suggest that "number of times a country lost the vote" is not a reliable measure of influence.

I would also respectfully suggest that if we can't show our influence within our local trading bloc, we probably shouldn't chance our arm at going global on our own.

Mr Rev. that is a lucid, well thought-out, intelligent objection... DENIED!!!

[NotoriousREV]

I'm still waiting for a lucid, well thought-out discussion from one of our Leave voters. Dave! has given it a decent go, but unfortunately it is at the very least a bigoted viewpoint. Sorry Dave!, I know you're generally a nice guy and your experiences are your experiences, but you've definitely started to stumble towards far right thinking. You'll be quoting Enoch Powell next.

[dinny_g]

Well I'm not going to try...

[Zonda_]

She did seem to be trying to suggest a second refrendum as an option there.

[NotoriousREV]

Given the division in the country, and her inability to even let Parliament vote on her deal, I don't see how morally anyone can oppose a 2nd referendum.

I know this usually elicits a cry of "undemocratic" or "overriding the will of the people" or some such nonsense, but the reality is that it's much the same electorate as last time, but there's more detail about what we're actually voting for. So your gammony vote is still worth what it was last time.

It's a simple 2 stage question of: Leave or Remain, and, if the result is Leave, Deal of No Deal. Or some sort of preference based approach of rank your preference in order of Remain, Deal or No Deal.