Bye bye Theresa

[GG.]

If you think people want to gradually move tax and spend powers to brussels, reduce westminster to a regional decision making power and reduce the British army's capabilities in favour of a pan European army ("fantasy" says Clegg, even though that is now what is being proposed by Macron and Merkel) where we borrow French planes (a component of some of the previous suggestions) then you need to take a long hard reality check. Although the referendum was 48:52, if you pitched that as what the general public are choosing between you're going to struggle to get into double figures % for the pro EU case.

And Zedleg - please check yourself before making insinuating remarks like your last post or you and I are going to become unfriendly pretty fucking quickly.

[ZedLeg]

Well someone woke up on the wrong side of bed this morning .

[NotoriousREV]

Its the spirit of conciliation and friendship he exudes which I really appreciate.

[Jobbo]

If you think people want to gradually move tax and spend powers to brussels, reduce westminster to a regional decision making power and reduce the British army's capabilities in favour of a pan European army ("fantasy" says Clegg, even though that is now what is being proposed by Macron and Merkel) where we borrow French planes (a component of some of the previous suggestions) then you need to take a long hard reality check. Although the referendum was 48:52, if you pitched that as what the general public are choosing between you're going to struggle to get into double figures % for the pro EU case.

Being a Leaver, what on earth gives your opinion on this any weight at all? I entirely disagree with you.

Not sure why you're quite so insular on this. This country is not as important as you think it is on the world stage, get over it.

[NotoriousREV]

If you think people want to gradually move tax and spend powers to brussels, reduce westminster to a regional decision making power and reduce the British army's capabilities in favour of a pan European army ("fantasy" says Clegg, even though that is now what is being proposed by Macron and Merkel) where we borrow French planes (a component of some of the previous suggestions) then you need to take a long hard reality check. Although the referendum was 48:52, if you pitched that as what the general public are choosing between you're going to struggle to get into double figures % for the pro EU case.

Being a Leaver, what on earth gives your opinion on this any weight at all? I entirely disagree with you.

Not sure why you're quite so insular on this. This country is not as important as you think it is on the world stage, get over it.

^^^^^^^ THIS!

[GG.]

https://www.politico.eu/article/united- ... avor-poll/

Its been polled. If you're pitching a federal Europe (as Schulz was proposing in his run for the German Chancellorship last year), 10% of British people support that idea - which is exactly what I said - just out of single digits. It isn't just my opinion plucked out of thin air as much as you may want to argue the toss on every point. If you pitch a federalist-lite structure, then clearly you'd get higher than 10% - but it would still be a Leave landslide if that is what is on the ballot paper.

The "country not being as important as you think it is" is a typical remainer refrain but I would agree that differences of opinion on that point do define people's outlook on things. Unfortunately for you though, whatever metric you look at whether GDP, London as a financial centre, English and its role in us as a soft power, etc. etc. we're consistently one of the top 10 most important countries in the world (more often than not ranked 5th or 6th) behind the superpowers and in line with France and Germany.

You may not want to believe that but it doesn't make a convincing argument whether it is based on modesty, or most likely a feeling of discomfort with being lumped with Nationalists with "Union Jack tattoos" as Zedleg put it.

ETA: a good example is India - do you consider them an "important country"? I would expect most people would yet I wonder how many realise that British GDP is still (as of 2017) larger than that of India - a country with a population 20 times the size of ours.

[ZedLeg]

More people answered that they didn't know or care than said they definitely wouldn't though. You could argue that the issue is one of education than people not wanting it. Which is the issue with the whole referendum, a lot of people didn't know what they were voting for.

[Mito Man]

The United States of Europe idea was laughable, I remember something about EU members not joining it would have to leave the EU. Still, we could remain until that happens in 2025 and pick up all the lucrative defence contracts for the EU army then get kicked out.

[GG.]

More people answered that they didn't know or care than said they definitely wouldn't though. You could argue that the issue is one of education than people not wanting it. Which is the issue with the whole referendum, a lot of people didn't know what they were voting for.

Correct but as Duncs has shown, many Remain voters were also unaware that there was no true "status quo" option - the journey of the EU from EEC to its current state shows it is in reality on an inexorable path of progression towards "ever closer union" - its their mantra for god's sake. If people in the early 70s had a time machine and were able to see what the EU would become in 2018, I'm pretty sure the first referendum would not have been a yes, either.

[NotoriousREV]

Why do you fear "ever closer union" so much?

[GG.]

I'm sure you're heard the Leave argument (though you state you don't think they make any sense) or are you asking for my particular reasons?

Let me ask you a question - are you in favour or against the devolved powers that have been given to Scotland and Wales? Do you think that makes no sense?

[NotoriousREV]

Answer the bloody question.

[JLv3.0]

#FuckingLawyers

[GG.]

No, you answer the question! I'm not hear to write dissertations for you to say "don't make any sense" - there's no point in engaging you in that debate.

I'm trying to highlight (assuming you aren't against Blair's settlement for those regions) your cognitive dissonance if you are genuinely arguing for being a part of an increasingly centralised European bloc. You explain to me why you are pro one and anti the other - the parallels are forceful and many.

It at least makes more sense for more closely aligned countries like France, Germany and Italy whose politics are much more heavily biased towards a social democratic model than ours - particularly given we have an economic model that bears little resemblance to much of the rest of the EU (with our hated "Anglo Saxon" capitalism).

[NotoriousREV]

I'm not answering your questions until you answer mine, you bloody windbag.

[GG.]

That cuts short the inevitable pointless argument at least. I'd call that a success in the circumstances.

[NotoriousREV]

I'd also like to know why you think I'm "pro one and anti the other"? Ever closer union doesn't preclude local governance at all. It just means closer working.

[JLv3.0]

I see your question and I raise you a question.

And repeat.

[GG.]

Does it now. Well that's one fucking mighty assumption you're making. But in a sense you are right - that is what Westminster would then be - local governance.

Go put that on a ballot and see who votes for it.

[NotoriousREV]

I see your question and I raise you a question.

And repeat.

And this point I'm just baiting him. His position is utterly indefensible so he just refuses to engage and throws questions out without explaining. It's what he did last time. Either that or a wall of text that ultimately means nothing.