Bye bye Starmer

[ZedLeg]

Do you ever wonder if you’re falling down the rabbit hole Dinny?

[Marv]

I've always felt that what we're seeing in America could never happen here and that, when push comes to shove and the county's Government is at stake, that sense would prevail and that a party with experience of running the country would always win - albeit more likely a coalition with a smaller party.

You might have to explain that one to me like I'm a toddler Dinny Despite Trump not being a career politician, he's running America under the Republican party, and they do have a history of running the country afaik.

But yeah, I kind of get your point otherwise. Reform and Greens don't have any history of running the British Government. I think that's part of the reason why Farage has been taking MPs/former MPs away from the Conservatives, because to run an effective government you need people with experience of dealing with the civil service etc.

It's definitely a shift away from the Tory/Labour/Lib dem three horse race we've had for many, many decades now. But an obvious shift given how none of them have delivered an effective government which has moved us out of the decline the country seems to be going through.

[dinny_g]

Do you ever wonder if you’re falling down the rabbit hole Dinny?

I could counter that with "Do you ever think you're stuck in an Echo Chamber"

I try to read from a wide range of sources, from the Guardian on one side to the Mail on the other and multiple news sources in-between and from that, try to form my own balance views which reflect my own value system. I think I'm quite middle of the road to be honest.

When folks from either side of the stage say "You MUST think this way" my immediate feeling is No, I'll form my own views, thank you very much...

My views on Israel and Gaza tend to get should at from the left and my views on Gender tend to get shouted at from the right (and, funnily enough a bit from the left too because I'm not "All In" )

It's hard being a moderate centrist these days because everyone's telling you you're wrong...

[ZedLeg]

What does any of that have to do with saying “some bigots are more equal than others” about the green party?

[Jobbo]

ETA: There's also been one hell of a row about "family voting" going on, with one group claiming that such shenanigans were the highest they've ever noted, but the returning officer responding that concerns should have been raised during the voting window, not after the polls had closed.

It's Reform complaining about the "family voting" - and accompanying someone to the ballot box is not an offence or banned, btw. From this sort of thing, it seems they're the ones who have encouraged and benefited from it anyway Not a current tweet as far as I know, but typical of their campaigning.



Reform got ~29% of the vote while Labour and Green together got ~65%. Whichever way you slice the Labour/Green support, Reform had no chance of winning - tactical voting between Labour and Green could only ever have pushed Reform into 3rd place rather than given them the win. Reform trying to discredit the result is both a distraction and totally from the Trump fascist playbook.

The Tories have lost their deposit and that's shocking from the official opposition. I'd be very interested to see a by-election result in a historically Tory heartland seat.

Anyway, the Greens have come out with a big win and congratulations to them. Some of their policies are a bit odd; they dropped the natural birth one but are still a bit fringe in some places - but they're not spouting guff like Danny Kruger of Reform trying to regulate our sexual economy What a total crank.

[Jobbo]

accompanying someone to the ballot box is not an offence or banned, btw.

Thought it sensible to show the statute on this:



It is the influencing of others, not mere presence, which is required under the Ballot Secrecy Act 2023 for an offence to be made out.

[duncs500]

The Tories have lost their deposit and that's shocking from the official opposition. I'd be very interested to see a by-election result in a historically Tory heartland seat.

Well I think there's a pretty good chance that Reform are going to do quite well in typical Tory strongholds. I honestly think Labour need to get their shit together quite quickly now or we're staring down the barrel of this country getting itself into the mess that the US has got itself into... and that will take generations to unpick.

I hate to be negative, but right now I'd take any of the traditional three parties winning the next GE just to save us from a Reform government.

I should add that I know the LDs have been miles off it since the coalition, but hey, they're still a grown up party (what's left of them).

[Swervin_Mervin]

ETA: There's also been one hell of a row about "family voting" going on, with one group claiming that such shenanigans were the highest they've ever noted, but the returning officer responding that concerns should have been raised during the voting window, not after the polls had closed.

It's Reform complaining about the "family voting" - and accompanying someone to the ballot box is not an offence or banned, btw. From this sort of thing, it seems they're the ones who have encouraged and benefited from it anyway Not a current tweet as far as I know, but typical of their campaigning.



Reform got ~29% of the vote while Labour and Green together got ~65%. Whichever way you slice the Labour/Green support, Reform had no chance of winning - tactical voting between Labour and Green could only ever have pushed Reform into 3rd place rather than given them the win. Reform trying to discredit the result is both a distraction and totally from the Trump fascist playbook.

The Tories have lost their deposit and that's shocking from the official opposition. I'd be very interested to see a by-election result in a historically Tory heartland seat.

Anyway, the Greens have come out with a big win and congratulations to them. Some of their policies are a bit odd; they dropped the natural birth one but are still a bit fringe in some places - but they're not spouting guff like Danny Kruger of Reform trying to regulate our sexual economy What a total crank.

I hadn't seen anything about Reform complaining tbh - it's a group called Democracy Volunteers:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5yqpr28jrwo

[ZedLeg]

We really need to get away from the idea that there are “grown up parties” that are intrinsically better for government imo.

Labour were supposed to be the grown ups back in charge and they’ve been a mess.

[Swervin_Mervin]

I should add that I know the LDs have been miles off it since the coalition, but hey, they're still a grown up party (what's left of them).

They're just not grasping the nettle though are they? The current situation should be an open door for them to occupy some sensible middle ground, but they're just not "present" enough.

[Rich B]

The margin was too big for it being a protest vote, it was a win.

However, i think it has opened the door to future protest voting. All of a sudden there’s an “alternative” option getting a chunk of their own votes, with their own policies and candidates, with a leader that isn’t as bland as Ed Davey or as slimey as Farage.

[Jobbo]

I hadn't seen anything about Reform complaining tbh

Farage referred to cheating - must be this he's talking about:

[Rich B]

I hadn't seen anything about Reform complaining tbh

Farage referred to cheating - must be this he's talking about:

Absolutely, 28.7% of the votes could definitely be described as sectarian.

[Simon]

Crikey, am I too old or just tired of people drawing 2000 conclusions from a mid term by-election result? We've had this for the last 30 years that I remember voting in.

You can draw exactly zero inference of an election in 2029 of a by election in Feb '26. None.

[Rich B]

Crikey, am I too old or just tired of people drawing 2000 conclusions from a mid term by-election result? We've had this for the last 30 years that I remember voting in.

You can draw exactly zero inference of an election in 2029 of a by election in Feb '26. None.

You may have noticed over the last month or so, there’s been a fair amount of fuss over this particular by election and the potential labour candidates. No one is drawing any overall conclusions, but it is an interesting one that’s opened up a lot of eyes to the legitimacy of the green party.

[Jobbo]

I've just read that Starmer has written to all Labour MPs attacking the Green party for embracing divisive and sectarian politics. I've been a bit uncomfortable with how close his message has been to Reform's since his election (the "island of strangers" speech was particularly bad) and this seems another misstep - caveat that I haven't seen the letter so it's possible it is being misrepresented in some way.

Edit: Bluesky link to the text of the letter as a thread: https://bsky.app/profile/zoecrowther.bs ... ttn6ssl22o

He does use the word 'sectarian' in reference to George Galloway, though in the context of accusing the Greens of cosying up with him.

Overall it looks like sour grapes, not the positive message of why Labour can beat the Greens in a general election. Maybe trying to run towards both the Greens and Reform is going to end badly for Starmer. Who'd have thought it?

[duncs500]

We really need to get away from the idea that there are “grown up parties” that are intrinsically better for government imo.

Labour were supposed to be the grown ups back in charge and they’ve been a mess.

I think there's a certain level of competency that allows government to function just like any organisation. I know all staunch supporters of any party will say the incumbent is not competent if it is not their party, but the truth is we haven't actually seen what happens when a non-established party (particularly one that doesn't respect the institution or its conventions) suddenly finds themselves in power in this country. We're pretty much seeing it in the US with zero respect for anything established and knowledge or experience not being considered relevant when appointing senior positions.

The truth is, a lot of what you see as a 'mess' in government is actually democracy. I don't think the Chinese government is often a mess because 'individuals' involved have one option, and that is to conform. Anything else is literal or figurative suicide. The same is what Trump is trying to achieve in the US and what Putin has in Russia.

My opinion FWIW having worked with many incompetent and dysfunction organisations. It can always get worse.

[ZedLeg]

I think saying “that’s democracy” is a bit glib tbh.

More and more of what’s happening in UK and US politics isn’t tracking with popular opinion. It’s running to an agenda dictated by a group of incredibly rich and powerful people.

[MikeHunt]

His mother must have given birth in her late 60s or early 70s, some feat.

[IanF]

His mother must have given birth in her late 60s or early 70s, some feat.

I mean, it could be interpreted as she wanted to vote for anyone but Reform! But this “my 5 yr old says or my 150yr old 2nd cousin said that” nonsense on social media makes me cringe every time I see it.. do people really fall for it and go, right I’ll vote for them aswell (or agree with whatever nonsense is spouted)? I hope not

This could potentially see further defections from the Conservatives, including to the LDs so maybe there will be some unexpected fall out from this, but honestly who knows, world is a strange place currently