Telephone Pole

[mik]

Prompted by the vid Rich posted of someone having a go at Cycling Mikey after he filmed them holding/typing into their phone whilst stationary in traffic. Should it be illegal to look at / use your phone whilst stopped in traffic? At traffic lights etc etc.

Asking as this would appear to be the behaviour that mikey loves to catch most . It is of course illegal to use a phone (in your hand) whilst in charge of a car, so he is catching people breaking the law. But (unlike drivers using a handheld phone whilst the car is in motion, or drivers choosing to drive the wrong way down a street to save time (ie other law breaking that Mikey captures and challenges)) the act in itself (using a phone whilst stationary - keep up) arguably carries pretty much zero risk.

Yeah the driver can be so absorbed in their phone that they don’t notice the obstruction in front of them has moved forward, and they could then pull away without properly checking their environment and run over a toddler…. but some would argue that the issue is moving off without properly checking your environment rather than the use of a handheld phone whilst stationary. If you’d been distracted gazing at an immaculate moonstone blue RS500 that was crawling past you in traffic going the other way, and the car behind beeps you for being a dozey nob, as you’re now blocking the road > and then you pull away without properly checking your environment and run over a toddler….. is that really different?

I’ve seen people argue that Mikey is "taking advantage" of a legal technicality, and therefore they feel shouldn’t be filming people looking at their phones whilst stationary. But my understanding is that a policeperson would also pull you for doing this? Hence the issue appears to centre around the legality of this practice, rather than Mikey’s vigilantism (?).

[240PP]

I’m not aware of his backstory and why this is a big deal for him, but I think grassing people up for holding/looking at their phone in stationary traffic is a bit cunty.

And £200 and six points is over the top.

[Jobbo]

I think Mikey is OTT on this particular issue but it's easy pickings for him and probably weakens his general good work. Overall what matters is the law and whether it's right. And it blatantly is; if you have an absolute rule that you can't use your phone when driving then there's no grey areas, no scope for arguments and if you do it, you're bang to rights. What if you pick it up as you roll to a halt? Why should there need to be proof of the exact moment you came to rest? If you're driving, you're driving; don't start doomscrolling Facebook. If you want to do that, take a taxi or the bus.

[Mito Man]

I think where the law falls flat is if you’ve got your phone mounted on the windscreen and you’re using Waze and you touch the screen it’s still illegal. But if you have the exact same thing but its via CarPlay so its on your cars infotainment it’s legal.
And if you’ve got a Tesla then the software basically lets you do anything…

[Jobbo]

I think where the law falls flat is if you’ve got your phone mounted on the windscreen and you’re using Waze and you touch the screen it’s still illegal.

It's not though. https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones- ... ng-the-law - you can use a phone on a mount if you're not holding it in the same way as a built-in sat nav.

[Mito Man]

I think where the law falls flat is if you’ve got your phone mounted on the windscreen and you’re using Waze and you touch the screen it’s still illegal.

It's not though. https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones- ... ng-the-law - you can use a phone on a mount if you're not holding it in the same way as a built-in sat nav.

But the exemption is for hands free access, so what if you’re touching the screen even though it’s mounted in a dock?

[mik]

I think where the law falls flat is if you’ve got your phone mounted on the windscreen and you’re using Waze and you touch the screen it’s still illegal.

It's not though. https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones- ... ng-the-law - you can use a phone on a mount if you're not holding it in the same way as a built-in sat nav.

But the exemption is for hands free access, so what if you’re touching the screen even though it’s mounted in a dock?

“Hands-free access means using, for example:

a Bluetooth headset
voice command
a dashboard holder or mat
a windscreen mount
a built-in sat nav”

I use a Brodit phone cradle in the Evora. Many activities can be done with voice, but I tap the screen if needed (like I do the built-in screen located beside the phone)

[Mito Man]

Unless there’s an official line from the government or case law saying it’s permissible then I’m going to assume you can get done for it

[mik]

Unless there’s an official line from the government or case law saying it’s permissible then I’m going to assume you can get done for it

I’ve quoted the govt website. Its definition of hands-free use includes a phone in a holder.

[Mito Man]

Yes, but where does it say you can interact with your hands-free device using your, er, hands?
I note that voice commands are specifically listed but nothing about physical prodding and poking.
It’s ambiguous on purpose.

[Jobbo]

It's not ambiguous - it is holding the phone in your hand which is an offence. Hands-free means it's in a mount, not that you're using Siri. Other resources are available to remove ambiguity: https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/ask ... stion/Q955 for example.
"Pushing buttons/touching a phone while it's in a cradle is not covered by the above offence, provided you don't hold the phone. "

[Gavster]

It's definitely why Mikey is disliked so much: his brand of sanctimonious vigilanteism aims for the lowest-hanging fruit. If he was sitting on a bridge over the M25 with a long lens and filming people using their phones while travelling on the motorway, he'd get infinitely more respect.

[Mito Man]

It's not ambiguous - it is holding the phone in your hand which is an offence. Hands-free means it's in a mount, not that you're using Siri. Other resources are available to remove ambiguity: https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/ask ... stion/Q955 for example.
"Pushing buttons/touching a phone while it's in a cradle is not covered by the above offence, provided you don't hold the phone. "

Depends, is the following sentence of word salad related to the first?

"Pushing buttons/touching a phone while it's in a cradle is not covered by the above offence, provided you don't hold the phone. Therefore, in our opinion, if the device can allow for hands-free calls, such as when using Apple's Siri voice command system or using a car's compatible systems, it would be legal but inadvisable to use whilst driving. However, we would emphasise that ultimately this would be a matter for a court to decide."

[unzippy]

I wonder if the law has/needs changing due to stop start tech?

Is the car running if the engine isn't on? Or do they just go from ignition being live - I guess that covers EVs too..

[unzippy]

It's not ambiguous - it is holding the phone in your hand which is an offence. Hands-free means it's in a mount, not that you're using Siri. Other resources are available to remove ambiguity: https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/ask ... stion/Q955 for example.
"Pushing buttons/touching a phone while it's in a cradle is not covered by the above offence, provided you don't hold the phone. "

Depends, is the following sentence of word salad related to the first?

"Pushing buttons/touching a phone while it's in a cradle is not covered by the above offence, provided you don't hold the phone. Therefore, in our opinion, if the device can allow for hands-free calls, such as when using Apple's Siri voice command system or using a car's compatible systems, it would be legal but inadvisable to use whilst driving. However, we would emphasise that ultimately this would be a matter for a court to decide."

Courts wouldn't need to decide anything as an offence hasn't been committed..

[mik]

I wonder if the law has/needs changing due to stop start tech?

It’s in the uk_gov link Jobbo posted


=====


The law still applies to you if you’re:

stopped at traffic lights
queuing in traffic
supervising a learner driver
driving a car that turns off the engine when you stop moving
holding and using a device that’s offline or in flight mode

[unzippy]

I wonder if the law has/needs changing due to stop start tech?

It’s in the uk_gov link Jobbo posted


=====


The law still applies to you if you’re:

stopped at traffic lights
queuing in traffic
supervising a learner driver
driving a car that turns off the engine when you stop moving
holding and using a device that’s offline or in flight mode

Good point, well made

I'm sure there used to be an exemption for handheld devices that operated on certain frequencies - which made emergency services radios and CBs usable. But after a quick google it looks like they're changing the law that that it now says:

emergency services drivers will be able to use hand-held devices behind the wheel when communicating through the existing Airwave Tetra system and the forthcoming Emergency Services Network (ESN) system.

[Jobbo]

It's not ambiguous - it is holding the phone in your hand which is an offence. Hands-free means it's in a mount, not that you're using Siri. Other resources are available to remove ambiguity: https://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/ask ... stion/Q955 for example.
"Pushing buttons/touching a phone while it's in a cradle is not covered by the above offence, provided you don't hold the phone. "

Depends, is the following sentence of word salad related to the first?

"Pushing buttons/touching a phone while it's in a cradle is not covered by the above offence, provided you don't hold the phone. Therefore, in our opinion, if the device can allow for hands-free calls, such as when using Apple's Siri voice command system or using a car's compatible systems, it would be legal but inadvisable to use whilst driving. However, we would emphasise that ultimately this would be a matter for a court to decide."

Don't you have a lawyer in the family to help?

[Beany]

"No freebies"

[V8Granite]

Personally I don't think there should be any phone laws, we had driving without due care and attention and that should be enough.

The problem being as Jobbo says it will be a grey area and then too open to abuse.

I was quite happy being on my phone when it was legal but possibly affected my driving more than expected.

Dave!