Trump

[ZedLeg]

Perception is the key word there, can’t do much about ignorance if people don’t want to learn.

Alas if that perception is spread far and wide enough, that can become a destructive force whether real or imagined. It's a bit pointless to just dismiss it as a potential driver for some of the silliness we're seeing now because you don't like the idea that some people a perceiving something you don't agree with.

Anyway, I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about since you asked, which no doubt you'll shoot down, but hey-ho:

My wife's company recently forced a policy on all employees that they are not allowed to not express their pronouns on their email signatures. The reason for the policy is that someone who does wish to express their (perhaps less common garden) pronouns may feel more exposed due to it standing out next to another signature. That is an example of a policy that effectively steamrollers the vast majority to give support to more than likely a tiny minority. My wife preferred not to express her pronouns, but her preferences were not considered significant when devising the policy.

Not a big deal, but you multiply that kind of thing and it makes people feel like they're being ignored.

I personally agree with the policy that if everyone has their pronouns on their correspondence it makes it more comfortable for people who have chosen pronouns they would prefer others to use.

I wouldn’t make it policy that people have to though.

Why did your wife not want to put her pronouns in her sig?

[Rich B]

Perception is the key word there, can’t do much about ignorance if people don’t want to learn.

Alas if that perception is spread far and wide enough, that can become a destructive force whether real or imagined. It's a bit pointless to just dismiss it as a potential driver for some of the silliness we're seeing now because you don't like the idea that some people a perceiving something you don't agree with.

Anyway, I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about since you asked, which no doubt you'll shoot down, but hey-ho:

My wife's company recently forced a policy on all employees that they are not allowed to not express their pronouns on their email signatures. The reason for the policy is that someone who does wish to express their (perhaps less common garden) pronouns may feel more exposed due to it standing out next to another signature. That is an example of a policy that effectively steamrollers the vast majority to give support to more than likely a tiny minority. My wife preferred not to express her pronouns, but her preferences were not considered significant when devising the policy.

Not a big deal, but you multiply that kind of thing and it makes people feel like they're being ignored.

I personally agree with the policy that if everyone has their pronouns on their correspondence it makes it more comfortable for people who have chosen pronouns they would prefer others to use.

I wouldn’t make it policy that people have to though.

Why did your wife not want to put her pronouns in her sig?

Thats like the whole “cis” badging though, everyone else has to use a term for themselves that they aren’t particularly comfortable with to make others who want to use another term more comfortable.

i think we should just allow people to be different and fend for themselves. That obviously includes not persecuting people for being different though.

[duncs500]

I wrote that before I read yours

There you go. But you do understand that many people do notice this stuff, disagree with it, talk about it with similar minded folk, perhaps reluctantly abide by it? Not everybody is a campaigning type and will just get pissed off in silence rather than having a meaningful debate, which can then breed resentment.

[ZedLeg]

You’ve just done the worthy minority meme rich.

Allowing people to be different and fend for themselves inevitably leads to minorities being discriminated against. If it didn’t we would never have had to start using DEI in the first place.

[ZedLeg]

I wrote that before I read yours

There you go. But you do understand that many people do notice this stuff, disagree with it, talk about it with similar minded folk, perhaps reluctantly abide by it? Not everybody is a campaigning type and will just get pissed off in silence rather than having a meaningful debate, which can then breed resentment.

But again, you can’t do anything about that.

People act like DEI is a zero sum game and a concession to a minority is them losing something. It isn’t.

[duncs500]

Why did your wife not want to put her pronouns in her sig?

I don't know really, because it seemed unnecessary I think.
She's a female, with a female name, and how often in conversation with the subject individual present does one actually use pronouns in any case?

If I meet a person called Dave wearing a dress and lipstick, I don't feel the need to call them anything other than Dave if I'm in a meeting with them.

[Rich B]

You’ve just done the worthy minority meme rich.

Allowing people to be different and fend for themselves inevitably leads to minorities being discriminated against. If it didn’t we would never have had to start using DEI in the first place.

Well everything’s got a meme or term in your eyes!

I’m all for DEI, id hate to do something that makes anyone feel uncomfortable. The issue i’m referring to though is the very specific act of requesting everyone else to do something they are uncomfortable with to make the minority more comfortable.

[ZedLeg]

You’ve just done the worthy minority meme rich.

Allowing people to be different and fend for themselves inevitably leads to minorities being discriminated against. If it didn’t we would never have had to start using DEI in the first place.

Well everything’s got a meme or term in your eyes!

I’m all for DEI, id hate to do something that makes anyone feel uncomfortable. The issue i’m referring to though is the very specific act of requesting everyone else to do something they are uncomfortable with to make the minority more comfortable.

The worthy minority is a well known strawman mate.

It depends on what’s being asked imo.

Like, respecting someone’s pronouns or letting trans people use the bathroom where they feel comfortable harms no one. I’d say educating people about that makes more sense than marginalising the already marginalised.

[ZedLeg]

Why did your wife not want to put her pronouns in her sig?

I don't know really, because it seemed unnecessary I think.
She's a female, with a female name, and how often in conversation with the subject individual present does one actually use pronouns in any case?

If I meet a person called Dave wearing a dress and lipstick, I don't feel the need to call them anything other than Dave if I'm in a meeting with them.

It is admittedly a little performative for a cis person to have their pronouns in their sig but I’ve heard personally from nb and trans colleagues that it did make them feel more confident in requesting people use theirs. Which is what it’s actually about.

[Rich B]

You’ve just done the worthy minority meme rich.

Allowing people to be different and fend for themselves inevitably leads to minorities being discriminated against. If it didn’t we would never have had to start using DEI in the first place.

Well everything’s got a meme or term in your eyes!

I’m all for DEI, id hate to do something that makes anyone feel uncomfortable. The issue i’m referring to though is the very specific act of requesting everyone else to do something they are uncomfortable with to make the minority more comfortable.

The worthy minority is a well known strawman mate.

It depends on what’s being asked imo.

Like, respecting someone’s pronouns or letting trans people use the bathroom where they feel comfortable harms no one. I’d say educating people about that makes more sense than marginalising the already marginalised.

declaring something as a strawman doesn’t really make the issue go away though. The bathroom example is another good example though - if a trans woman using the women’s bathroom makes a woman uncomfortable, how is that any better?

[ZedLeg]

Again the question should be why the person is uncomfortable rather than putting the onus on the trans person to be different.

Trans people have used the facilities that match their gender for as long as they have existed (which, as far as we can tell is as long as people have existed).

Why are people suddenly being weird about it?

[ZedLeg]

There’s literally a trans woman being dragged through the courts in fife right now for daring to use the changing rooms she was advised to use at work.

[dinny_g]

My wife's company recently forced a policy on all employees that they are not allowed to not express their pronouns on their email signatures. The reason for the policy is that someone who does wish to express their (perhaps less common garden) pronouns may feel more exposed due to it standing out next to another signature. That is an example of a policy that effectively steamrollers the vast majority to give support to more than likely a tiny minority. My wife preferred not to express her pronouns, but her preferences were not considered significant when devising the policy.

Not a big deal, but you multiply that kind of thing and it makes people feel like they're being ignored.

I've been looking at my pronouns in my e-mail signature recently and have started to think it might come across as a bit passive aggressive.

[Swervin_Mervin]

Well everything’s got a meme or term in your eyes!

I’m all for DEI, id hate to do something that makes anyone feel uncomfortable. The issue i’m referring to though is the very specific act of requesting everyone else to do something they are uncomfortable with to make the minority more comfortable.

The worthy minority is a well known strawman mate.

It depends on what’s being asked imo.

Like, respecting someone’s pronouns or letting trans people use the bathroom where they feel comfortable harms no one. I’d say educating people about that makes more sense than marginalising the already marginalised.

declaring something as a strawman doesn’t really make the issue go away though. The bathroom example is another good example though - if a trans woman using the women’s bathroom makes a woman uncomfortable, how is that any better?

Like a Doctor that might be involved in a court case who openly says that women (proper ones (yes just to wind you up Zed!)) shouldn't be allowed to be protected at the expense of the rights of others (i.e. trans-women).

And balls to pronouns - why do you GAF how people refer to you in the 3rd person?

[ZedLeg]

Come on Swerve that’s just gross.

[240PP]

Again the question should be why the person is uncomfortable rather than putting the onus on the trans person to be different.

What right do you have to question why they are uncomfortable with it.

[Rich B]

Again the question should be why the person is uncomfortable rather than putting the onus on the trans person to be different.

Trans people have used the facilities that match their gender for as long as they have existed (which, as far as we can tell is as long as people have existed).

Why are people suddenly being weird about it?

I’ve not got any real issue with toilets or changing rooms, but i’m not female so don’t really want to talk for them.

However, i don’t want to put my pronouns on my email or call myself cis though - surely that’s not an issue?

[Swervin_Mervin]

Come on Swerve that’s just gross.

Which bit? My paraphrasing of what the Dr said? Which is what they said?

[ZedLeg]

Because if their discomfort is rooted in bigotry I don’t think it should be entertained.

Doesn’t seem like a particularly shocking thing to say.

It’s always eye opening for me to have this convsersation with people I generally think are fairly rational though. Like, there’s a huge amount of space between where I am and yous are.

[ZedLeg]

Come on Swerve that’s just gross.

Which bit? My paraphrasing of what the Dr said? Which is what they said?

The borderline transphobic “proper women” just to wind me up was a bit of a cunt move.