Axel Rudakubana

[Gavster]

Jesus christ

Been reading some of the sentencing updates on the BBC website, what an utterly sick, violent psychopath. I'm against the death penalty, but I could make an exception here.

ETA: Read with caution, there's some harrowing details https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/czepl8406n8t

[ZedLeg]

A terrible crime but how does then killing a mentally ill teenager solve anything?

[Mito Man]

Better than pissing away £50k a year for the next 80 years on his prison stay

[ZedLeg]

You’d spend that anyway, death row prisoners end up staying in Prison for years before their sentence is administered.

Barbarism as a money saving technique is definitely on brand for whatever stage of capitalism we’re at though.

[Mito Man]

His KC seems like someone you'd want saved in your contacts in case you ever kill someone
https://www.2br.co.uk/barrister/stan-reiz-kc/

[Gavster]

A terrible crime but how does then killing a mentally ill teenager solve anything?

Given he's surely on course for a whole life order, then how does incarcerating him for 50, 60 or more years without any prospect of rehabilitation to the point of transitioning back into the community solve anything? It's a zero-sum game either way.

[ZedLeg]

I’m not sure that it does.

I just don’t think that eye for an eye is a good basis for a modern justice system.

[GG.]

The interesting thing about the capital punishment debate is that knowing he was going to face the death penalty wouldn't likely have altered his behaviour in any event, nor potentially others of his ilk for whom martyrdom is a goal in itself. That doesn't mean you couldn't justify it on grounds of cost, which you of course could.

Interestingly and perhaps more controversial than the death penalty is preventative incarceration for those who are a risk to others as this boy clearly was. How you administer that effectively and how we roll back the approach of allowing many mentally ill and dangerous individuals to live unsupervised in society is a debate that should be had.

It is still unclear what this individual's motives were and whether any ideology was behind it, however, the broader issue with religious and other extremists is that there are now so many that would be deemed a risk to society, we are at a point where it has become very difficult to do anything proactive about them, even if there was a desire to do so.

Clearly the fact that the authorities have no control over immigration whatsoever (see Thames Water's report estimating 1 in 12 Londoners being in the country illegally) is also part of the picture.

[ZedLeg]

Rare agreement with GG here.

The problem is a lack of mental health services and facilities. There was plenty of warning that this kid was going to do something horrifying and people can already be sectioned if they are a danger to themselves or others. Not saying it would definitely have stopped something like this, but it would be a lot more useful than killing folk after the fact.

[Gavster]

I agree that an eye for an eye is not a foundation for a justice system, that's why I stated that this case stands out as exceptional. For 99.999% of crimes a rehabilitation-based justice system is the foundation that we need.

I'm talking about incredibly rare, exceptionally severe cases where guilt is proven with an incredibly high veracity of evidence. Or add an exception into the assisted dying bill so that whole life order offenders get the option to choose for themselves.

[GG.]

Rare agreement with GG here.

The problem is a lack of mental health services and facilities. There was plenty of warning that this kid was going to do something horrifying and people can already be sectioned if they are a danger to themselves or others. Not saying it would definitely have stopped something like this, but it would be a lot more useful than killing folk after the fact.

I may have added a final sentence that I expect you may not agree with

[GG.]

Or add an exception into the assisted dying bill so that whole life order offenders get the option to choose for themselves.

That is an interesting proposition. I expect it would still meet resistance in that even if you thought you were wrongly incarcerated you may choose that option out of desperation.

[ZedLeg]

I agree that an eye for an eye is not a foundation for a justice system, that's why I stated that this case stands out as exceptional. For 99.999% of crimes a rehabilitation-based justice system is the foundation that we need.

I'm talking about incredibly rare, exceptionally severe cases where guilt is proven with an incredibly high veracity of evidence. Or add an exception into the assisted dying bill so that whole life order offenders get the option to choose for themselves.

The death penalty doesn’t work and I’m extremely uncomfortable with killing people because we don’t think we can help them.

[ZedLeg]

Rare agreement with GG here.

The problem is a lack of mental health services and facilities. There was plenty of warning that this kid was going to do something horrifying and people can already be sectioned if they are a danger to themselves or others. Not saying it would definitely have stopped something like this, but it would be a lot more useful than killing folk after the fact.

I may have added a final sentence that I expect you may not agree with

Well you are a right wing headbanger, it was never going to last forever

[GG.]

Some of the commentary on what is being said is, as noted above, pretty harrowing.

"The court heard that Alice’s mother “often thinks about going to meet her or hopes that life is shortened so they can be together
again.”

They said that “cooking brings out fear sometimes. Especially when [Alice’s mother] is holding a knife and the thought seems so tempting. We were used to cook for three but now only cook for two and it doesn’t seem right. Our only child. She was everything for us”.

Her mother is unable to go to the toilet at night without her husband there as she finds the dark so terrifying.

They continued: “Grief has taken away any sense of meaning we once had and replaced by constant numbness. It’s hard to feel happy, to enjoy the music and to see the good in life when the centre of our universe has been taken."

As a parent of a young child that is very hard to read.

[Rich B]

Clearly the fact that the authorities have no control over immigration whatsoever (see Thames Water's report estimating 1 in 12 Londoners being in the country illegally) is also part of the picture.

How does this relate to this story?

[GG.]

Rare agreement with GG here.

The problem is a lack of mental health services and facilities. There was plenty of warning that this kid was going to do something horrifying and people can already be sectioned if they are a danger to themselves or others. Not saying it would definitely have stopped something like this, but it would be a lot more useful than killing folk after the fact.

I may have added a final sentence that I expect you may not agree with

Well you are a right wing headbanger, it was never going to last forever

Coming from a left wing wet like you I'll bear that epithet with pride.

[GG.]

Clearly the fact that the authorities have no control over immigration whatsoever (see Thames Water's report estimating 1 in 12 Londoners being in the country illegally) is also part of the picture.

How does this relate to this story?

As I said his motives are not clear so it doesn't directly relate to him - there was a wider point about prevention of terrible acts like this and it is a part of the picture that without control over your borders you don't know whether convicted offenders or those on terror or sanctions lists have entered into your country illegally.

[Rich B]

Clearly the fact that the authorities have no control over immigration whatsoever (see Thames Water's report estimating 1 in 12 Londoners being in the country illegally) is also part of the picture.

How does this relate to this story?

As I said his motives are not clear so it doesn't directly relate to him - there was a wider point about prevention of terrible acts like this and it is a part of the picture that without control over your borders you don't know whether convicted offenders or those on terror or sanctions lists have not entered into your country illegally.

is it cos he’s black?

[GG.]

How does this relate to this story?

As I said his motives are not clear so it doesn't directly relate to him - there was a wider point about prevention of terrible acts like this and it is a part of the picture that without control over your borders you don't know whether convicted offenders or those on terror or sanctions lists have not entered into your country illegally.

is it cos he’s black?

Nicely exemplifying why no serious society wide conversion about any of the above matters can be had. Hopefully that makes you feel good and progressive.