Cycling Thread

[Gavster]

Pog has shown he's in significantly better form than Vinegaard this year, although it's worth noting that Remco, Vingegaard and Pogacar all completed the Plateau de Beille climb yesterday in record time, faster than the previous best set by Marco Pantaini in 1998. Pog knocked a massive 3:40 off the previous 43:20record, which is frankly an astonishing achievement without consuming vast quantities of performance-enhancing drugs.

I reckon Vingegaard is now focussed on minimising losses to Pog but also making sure he's several minutes clear of Remco in third, who could easily take time out of the leaders on the final TT.

[Jobbo]

Pog has shown he's in significantly better form than Vinegaard this year, although it's worth noting that Remco, Vingegaard and Pogacar all completed the Plateau de Beille climb yesterday in record time, faster than the previous best set by Marco Pantaini in 1998. Pog knocked a massive 3:40 off the previous 43:20record, which is frankly an astonishing achievement without consuming vast quantities of performance-enhancing drugs.

I haven't watched the highlights show yet but didn't realise that all of their times were faster. It is indeed, almost unbelievable if that is the case; Pantani was both a bit of a freak of nature in terms of physique and retrospectively found to have been doping in tests after his death.

[Gavster]

Ahh crap sorry Simon I didn't hide it.

That record isn't the only one. Pogacar has trampled over some other climbing records in this tour too. I know bike tech has improved massively, but I assume that has the most benefit on aerodynamics, which have limited effects on a climb with an average speed of less than 15mph.

[Jobbo]

Not a problem Gav - if I didn't want spoilers I wouldn't click on this thread until after I'd watched it. I only mentioned that because I didn't know if they made anything of it in the show; generally they don't mention doping at all so would they mention that the record time by a proven doper had been beaten?

Agree re. bike tech - climbing is the area where those gains don't count for much because it's basically about weight at those speeds. And since the UCI minimum is 6.8kg (which is actually lighter than Pantani's 1988 bike by 160g) there's not going to be anything there to make a difference.

[Gavster]

They didn't mention doping and everything I see has a PR gloss of "modern cycling is clean" to it, however there's a lot of cynicism because the current performances are mind-blowing.

They are comparing Pogacar's all-round ability and racing style to Merckx, which seems to be a valid claim. My Dad was a racing cyclist who followed Merckx's career back in the day and he agrees on that one too.

[8Ball]

I think the bike tech isn't just about weight/aero, but also efficiency. I'd suspect today's bikes are a lot stiffer which improves power transfer and drive trains far more efficient than back in the day

Training and nutrition are also a lot better allowing athletes to perform better.

I've watched cycling for too long to say it's clean, but I don't think the doping happens in the way it used to, particularly at the top level, but I wouldn't be surprised if teams are operating in th e grey areas and exploiting what they can there.

[Jobbo]

They didn't mention doping and everything I see has a PR gloss of "modern cycling is clean" to it, however there's a lot of cynicism because the current performances are mind-blowing.

They are comparing Pogacar's all-round ability and racing style to Merckx, which seems to be a valid claim. My Dad was a racing cyclist who followed Merckx's career back in the day and he agrees on that one too.

Merckx raced in an era where amphetamine use was commonplace - there's virtually no chance he wasn't doping with whatever was available back then. I have a suspicion that the biological passport basis can be gamed by doping youngsters in ways that won't be detectable years on because the drugs left the system years before, but giving a baseline for the bio passport which is way higher than natural.

[DaveE]

I just assume top-level athletes are doping in some way - the benefits/what's at stake kind of demands you try and get every possible advantage

"Some asthma drugs, specifically beta-2 agonists, can improve sprint and strength performance in athletes, even those without asthma."

I'm always amazed how so many of the world's elite athletes also have asthma

[Carlos]

I just assume top-level athletes are doping in some way - the benefits/what's at stake kind of demands you try and get every possible advantage

"Some asthma drugs, specifically beta-2 agonists, can improve sprint and strength performance in athletes, even those without asthma."

I'm always amazed how so many of the world's elite athletes also have asthma

And heart problems so they need Meldonium!

[Gavster]

Tomorrow and Saturday are big climbing days with around 4,500m of ascent each. Pog is looking pretty solid in first and assuming he remains on form I expect he'll pull a few more minutes out of Vingegaard on those climbs. On the other hand Vingegaard is really fighting for second now, Remco is still threathingly close in third, especially with the TT on the last day. Plus Remco briefly dropped Vingegaard yesterday on a climb so who knows what could happen before Sunday.

[DaveE]

Pogačar on Isola 2000 averaged 6.83 ᵉW/Kg for 37:44 min and 7.21 ᵉW/Kg normalized for sea level. Despite it being at a high altitude.

He's 66kg, so that's 450 watts, for nearly 38 minutes, at an altitude of 2000m

Insane

[Gavster]

Absolutely mental

Today’s stage is looking mental straight out the blocks. The whole peloton is strung out after just 30km

[Jobbo]

That was a rather impressive couple of days from Pog. He’s not even looking worn out at the end of them.

I’m hoping Remco wins the TT today.

[Gavster]

I was also on Remco’s side for today, however I feel Pog was very restrained yesterday and might have far more in the tank than anyone else.

[Jobbo]

Yes, far more red blood cells at a guess

[Jobbo]

You may have seen this linked on PH. It is not specifically cycling related and not up to date but it's a very up front and honest history from a convicted systematic organiser of doping, Victor Conte. Makes it much more obvious how it's done. Does make you think anyone who wins in any sport must be doping.

[Gavster]

That actually came up on my YT feed because I seem to enjoy watching videos about how criminals operate will watch it later.

Greg Lemond was saying he felt that Pog was probably clean, simply because he's been an outstanding rider since his teenage years, who dominated many events even with a rubbish team. The other option would be that he started doping when he was 17 years old and has consistently continued to do so ever since, although that seems less likely. That was in contrast to people like Armstrong, who suddenly became world-beating halfway through their career.

[Jobbo]

The other option would be that he started doping when he was 17 years old and has consistently continued to do so ever since, although that seems less likely.

If Pog is doping I think it's quite likely Vingegaard and perhaps Evenepoel would be as well; they were all head and shoulders ahead of everyone else and Vingegaard was still recovering from his crash which would have probably knocked a few percent off. The thing which makes them all look suspicious to me is that they're all top of the tree in every area - TTs, climbing, whatever. The fact that Pog didn't even look out of breath but apparently is suffering from exhaustion so will miss the Olympics looks like a bit of a performative gesture.

[Gavster]

If those three are doping then others will be too, and AFAIK they've all been outstanding riders for their entire careers to date.

Also, skipping the Olympics could be an entirely strategic choice, in case he decides to try for a historic triple with the Vuelta then he won't want to race the Olympics too.

[mik]

Also, skipping the Olympics could be an entirely strategic choice

Probably needs it's own thread, but I've never really understood the appeal of the Olympics to Pro sports-persons.

If I'd won the TDF, or Wimbledon, or whatevah.... not sure that the opportunity of an Olympic gold would really excite me too much.