Bye Bye Sunak..

[ZedLeg]

You need to figure out what you mean.

Also to repeat, the right for trans people to use the “x only space” that matches their gender is already protected in law for anyone who has a grc.

What Kier is saying here is a rollback in rights.

[V8Granite]

What about the rights of the girls in schools ?

Dave!

[ZedLeg]

Nothing has changed, they have the same rights they’ve always had.

[Swervin_Mervin]

I think you mean the confected controversy about gender identity became a thing. There have been people living outside the cis male/female binary since ancient history.

I’m more concerned for the trans kids killing themselves because they can’t access treatment tbh, 16 kids have killed themselves since treatment options were taken away.

That sounds rather more like the piss poor mental health provision in the UK has failed them than anything else.

[dinny_g]

I think you mean the confected controversy about gender identity became a thing. There have been people living outside the cis male/female binary since ancient history.

I’m more concerned for the trans kids killing themselves because they can’t access treatment tbh, 16 kids have killed themselves since treatment options were taken away.

Yes there have been transgender people throughout history - I mean Dog Day Afternoon is 50 years old next year.

But the BMA report a 6 fold increase in people having Gender Dysphoria (as they put it) - from 1 in 15,000 to 1 in 2,500 - in the 23 years since 2000. And in America, the number of clinics offering gender re-assignment treatment has increased from less than 10 in 2010 to over 100 last year. for context, MySpace launched in 2003

As for your second point, of course, suicide among trans kids who can't access treatment is terrible and cannot be ignored or brushed under the carpet. But there are lots of ways to deal with this and allowing them treatment is only one of them. I would hope professional counselling to help them deal with their birth gender until such time as they are mature enough to transition might be something to consider. Are there any figures available for suicides among children who've transitioned and regretted it ?

[ZedLeg]

It’s worse than that, there’s no provision for gender affirming care in the nhs. People who were already on scripts for hormones still get them but no new patients.

Mental health treatment can only go so far for gender dysphoria. Which is why the professional support for gender affirming care is almost universal.

[Swervin_Mervin]

It’s worse than that, there’s no provision for gender affirming care in the nhs. People who were already on scripts for hormones still get them but no new patients.

Mental health treatment can only go so far for gender dysphoria. Which is why the professional support for gender affirming care is almost universal.

I'm not on about treatment - I'm on about MH support until, as Dinny says, that person is legally an adult and has physically matured. But that's where our views will differ as to who should be offered treatment, and I'm afraid you'll never persuade me out of the camp that believes kids shouldn't be receiving hormones or surgery.

[ZedLeg]

I think you mean the confected controversy about gender identity became a thing. There have been people living outside the cis male/female binary since ancient history.

I’m more concerned for the trans kids killing themselves because they can’t access treatment tbh, 16 kids have killed themselves since treatment options were taken away.

Yes there have been transgender people throughout history - I mean Dog Day Afternoon is 50 years old next year.

But the BMA report a 6 fold increase in people having Gender Dysphoria (as they put it) - from 1 in 15,000 to 1 in 2,500 - in the 23 years since 2000. And in America, the number of clinics offering gender re-assignment treatment has increased from less than 10 in 2010 to over 100 last year. for context, MySpace launched in 2003

As for your second point, of course, suicide among trans kids who can't access treatment is terrible and cannot be ignored or brushed under the carpet. But there are lots of ways to deal with this and allowing them treatment is only one of them. I would hope professional counselling to help them deal with their birth gender until such time as they are mature enough to transition might be something to consider. Are there any figures available for suicides among children who've transitioned and regretted it ?

The general figure for people who transition and regret it is very low. It’s hard to get solid numbers for any trans stuff as the affected people are so few. There won’t be many kids who are detrans as the only way they’d get treatment that would need a detransition is if their parents spend a lot of money.

You tend to find in progressive societies that people with minority identities are more open about it as time goes on and society becomes more accepting. This whiplash reaction to trans people is just recycled 20th century gay panic.

Hell, I’m more open about my sexuality than I ever have been because I’m finally in a space where it doesn’t feel dangerous to talk about it.

This is generally considered a good thing.

[ZedLeg]

It’s worse than that, there’s no provision for gender affirming care in the nhs. People who were already on scripts for hormones still get them but no new patients.

Mental health treatment can only go so far for gender dysphoria. Which is why the professional support for gender affirming care is almost universal.

I'm not on about treatment - I'm on about MH support until, as Dinny says, that person is legally an adult and has physically matured. But that's where our views will differ as to who should be offered treatment, and I'm afraid you'll never persuade me out of the camp that believes kids shouldn't be receiving hormones or surgery.

Kids don’t get surgery and only get hormones after they’ve had extensive psychological evaluation. Also neither of these things are available on the NHS. Surgery isn’t even available to adults.

The last argument was about puberty blockers, a treatment that is routine for loads of stuff and was being used to stop secondary sex characteristics while they go through the evaluation. That treatment is also not available anymore due to the Cass review.

[ZedLeg]

Apparently other people in my area aren’t thrilled with Labour either, this is about minute from my house

IMG_1344.jpeg (137.65 KiB) Viewed 626 times

[Rich B]

Do trans people want this much fuss? It seems that this tiny minority who are presumably most interested in going about their life without hassle, have become a huge target for do-gooders and haters alike. I reckon if I was in that position, I expect that level of attention is the last thing I'd want.

[ZedLeg]

They just want to live their lives but many feel that their backs are to the wall so they have to fight.

Like, no one enjoys getting up every day to be called a danger to children for no reason.

[DaveE]

My best friend's son is living as a post-op man now

He's been through hell over the years, but it's immediately obvious (several years on) that being born female just wasn't right for him

There's a comfort and rightness about him being a man now

Like a huge weight has been lifted from his shoulders...

He's a bit of an inspiration to be honest (I can't imagine how driven and certain he must have felt about it, I've never had a 'need' like that, if that makes sense)

[Gavster]

I find the toilets thing hilarious because we all grew up with unisex toilets in our homes and then suddenly people are worried about whether a person with a penis will be in the next cubicle. I literally live with a trans man (my lodger) and there is zero drama about anything to do with our respective gender identities.

Of course the subject is complicated because it is fundamentally awkward to insert a spectrum of gender identities into a society that is historically built around two binary gender identities. For example, my lodger identifies as a trans man, as opposed to a man, and actively seeks out specifically queer/trans spaces in society that are not for cisgender people, and those spaces can be scant.

Starmer's comments are harmful because of the division they cause, because we're not sophisticated enough in our thinking about integrating trans people in society to apply blanket statements like that. He really should have kept his mouth shut and thought about this a bit more.

However any hysteria (especially online) about the subject really is a result of extreme ends of the scale. People like JK Rowling are simply being actively antagonistic and totally unhelpful. Equally, pointing to a dude who put on a dress and went off and raped someone is not representative of the trans community either.

[Gavster]

Fuck, I came on here to post this... if there's a reason to vote for anyone except the Conservatives, it's because of this and their failure to do anything to prevent it:

- The height of 5 year olds has been falling since 2013.
- Obesity among 10-11 year olds has increased by 30% since 2006.
- Type 2 diabetes among under 25s has increased by 22% in the past 5 years.
- Babies born today will enjoy a year less good health than babies born a decade ago.

[V8Granite]

Fuck, I came on here to post this... if there's a reason to vote for anyone except the Conservatives, it's because of this and their failure to do anything to prevent it:

- The height of 5 year olds has been falling since 2013.
- Obesity among 10-11 year olds has increased by 30% since 2006.
- Type 2 diabetes among under 25s has increased by 22% in the past 5 years.
- Babies born today will enjoy a year less good health than babies born a decade ago.

If only they got rid of this retarded thought that red meat and junk food are the same thing. My kids are taught in school about red meat being a once a week food and how cereal and fruit is a great breakfast.

Dave!

[V8Granite]

I find the toilets thing hilarious because we all grew up with unisex toilets in our homes and then suddenly people are worried about whether a person with a penis will be in the next cubicle. I literally live with a trans man (my lodger) and there is zero drama about anything to do with our respective gender identities.

Of course the subject is complicated because it is fundamentally awkward to insert a spectrum of gender identities into a society that is historically built around two binary gender identities. For example, my lodger identifies as a trans man, as opposed to a man, and actively seeks out specifically queer/trans spaces in society that are not for cisgender people, and those spaces can be scant.

Starmer's comments are harmful because of the division they cause, because we're not sophisticated enough in our thinking about integrating trans people in society to apply blanket statements like that. He really should have kept his mouth shut and thought about this a bit more.

However any hysteria (especially online) about the subject really is a result of extreme ends of the scale. People like JK Rowling are simply being actively antagonistic and totally unhelpful. Equally, pointing to a dude who put on a dress and went off and raped someone is not representative of the trans community either.

No you don’t share a space with people in your house, you shut the door to a room. In schools you have teenage boys running about being teenage boys and generally more timid girls in a very awkward part of their lives too scared to pee in school. That’s unacceptable.

After spending a weekend in Brighton it was very clear that I saw more transvestite men with beards (maybe it was just men in a dress and not transvestites) then the issue might not be as emotive for people. If I wore a dress and lipstick and sauntered into a woman’s toilet, I’d fully expect to hear shouting and screaming. As they would want a convincing transvestite just doesn’t stand out.

As with everything, if the extremes on each end would fuck off, everyone would be far happier.

Dave!

[ZedLeg]

You’re being ignorant Dave.

A trans woman isn’t “a bloke in a dress”

[ZedLeg]

Fuck, I came on here to post this... if there's a reason to vote for anyone except the Conservatives, it's because of this and their failure to do anything to prevent it:

- The height of 5 year olds has been falling since 2013.
- Obesity among 10-11 year olds has increased by 30% since 2006.
- Type 2 diabetes among under 25s has increased by 22% in the past 5 years.
- Babies born today will enjoy a year less good health than babies born a decade ago.

Yeah, the outgoing government oversaw the first downturn in quality of life ever iirc.

[Gavster]

I find the toilets thing hilarious because we all grew up with unisex toilets in our homes and then suddenly people are worried about whether a person with a penis will be in the next cubicle. I literally live with a trans man (my lodger) and there is zero drama about anything to do with our respective gender identities.

Of course the subject is complicated because it is fundamentally awkward to insert a spectrum of gender identities into a society that is historically built around two binary gender identities. For example, my lodger identifies as a trans man, as opposed to a man, and actively seeks out specifically queer/trans spaces in society that are not for cisgender people, and those spaces can be scant.

Starmer's comments are harmful because of the division they cause, because we're not sophisticated enough in our thinking about integrating trans people in society to apply blanket statements like that. He really should have kept his mouth shut and thought about this a bit more.

However any hysteria (especially online) about the subject really is a result of extreme ends of the scale. People like JK Rowling are simply being actively antagonistic and totally unhelpful. Equally, pointing to a dude who put on a dress and went off and raped someone is not representative of the trans community either.

No you don’t share a space with people in your house, you shut the door to a room. In schools you have teenage boys running about being teenage boys and generally more timid girls in a very awkward part of their lives too scared to pee in school. That’s unacceptable.

After spending a weekend in Brighton it was very clear that I saw more transvestite men with beards (maybe it was just men in a dress and not transvestites) then the issue might not be as emotive for people. If I wore a dress and lipstick and sauntered into a woman’s toilet, I’d fully expect to hear shouting and screaming. As they would want a convincing transvestite just doesn’t stand out.

As with everything, if the extremes on each end would fuck off, everyone would be far happier.

Dave!

The bearded guys in women's clothing were most likely in drag, not trans women. They do it for fun as a performance and don't live their lives looking like that, nor do they identify as trans or female. Very often they're gay/queer men who will use the men's toilet alongside you too.

Trans people don't want to scare kids in schools either Dave. I doubt there's anyone who actively does.