New 911

[Jobbo]

I watched Porsche’s official launch video for the new 911 on YouTube last night. Quite surprised by a few things:
- when they first showed it, I thought they were taking the piss because it looks like a tiny facelift of the 992;
- Mat Watson being involved in the launch video and basically doing a Carwow drag race. Interesting PR;
- it’s apparently a hybrid but the way they described it, it seems no more of a hybrid than my Audi - the electric turbocharger is familiar and I don’t think it can do more than coast on electricity alone.

Certainly doesn’t make me want to rush out and buy the last 992.2 to avoid the new one. I wonder what the model name is? 992.3?

[mik]

- it’s apparently a hybrid but the way they described it, it seems no more of a hybrid than my Audi - the electric turbocharger is familiar and I don’t think it can do more than coast on electricity alone.

Watson said as much in a vid I watched over breakfast (his was the first one that popped up - unfortunately). Used mainly for sharpening perceived throttle response, & torque fill (allowing them to switch to a single larger turbot).

New rear light bar is intended to make it look even wider. They already look extremely wide - mainly because they are extremely wide - so I am not sure why this is needed.

[Ascender]

Why has it gone "hybrid" when all the motor seems to do is provide more power? There's no positive impact on anything else in the car. Apart from 15 metres faster on the quarter mile.

Does look very much like a mid-model facelift and yes, looks even wider. Every time I see a recent 911 now I can't believe just how big and wide they've become.

[Sundayjumper]

Apart from 15 metres faster on the quarter mile.

It does the quarter mile in 15 metres less than a quarter mile ? Impressive !

If they're genuinely quoting quarter mile performance as a relative measure and in metres now, it's just an obvious misdirection from discussing how the time difference is so negligible it's not worth mentioning.

[mik]

Why has it gone "hybrid" when all the motor seems to do is provide more power?

Regs & quotas.

On one hand it's disappointing that it can't run in full electric mode, but on the other hand they have ticked the hybrid box and focussed on how they leverage the system to improve the driving experience. The system doesn't therefore appear to make a big difference to power output or performance as it is focussed on transient as opposed to continuous application - which is interesting (to me).

[Ascender]

Why has it gone "hybrid" when all the motor seems to do is provide more power?

Regs & quotas.

On one hand it's disappointing that it can't run in full electric mode, but on the other hand they have ticked the hybrid box and focussed on how they leverage the system to improve the driving experience. The system doesn't therefore appear to make a big difference to power output or performance as it is focussed on transient as opposed to continuous application - which is interesting (to me).

That's what I thought, but the Top Gear piece said that the hybrid made negligible difference to efficiency or emissions, so it sounds like a pointless box-ticking exercise.

[mik]

so it sounds like a pointless box-ticking exercise.

Agree, but it's a direction they are being forced in. It's not a hybrid like other hybrids, but it allows them to tick the box with minimal weight gain - focussing on enhancing the driving experience.

Quick google for regulations around % of EV sales for manufacturers : "For 2024, this is set at 22% of all new cars sold, rising every year thereafter until a target of 80% at 2030 and the 100% target by 2035."

edit: I am not hugely convinced by more conventional hybrids or PHEV's that alternate between power sources. The idea of driving 10 miles on purely electric, and the car brain then kicking in the ICE from cold in order to accelerate down a motorway slip-road makes me wince.

[GG.]

I watched Porsche’s official launch video for the new 911 on YouTube last night. Quite surprised by a few things:
- when they first showed it, I thought they were taking the piss because it looks like a tiny facelift of the 992;
- Mat Watson being involved in the launch video and basically doing a Carwow drag race. Interesting PR;
- it’s apparently a hybrid but the way they described it, it seems no more of a hybrid than my Audi - the electric turbocharger is familiar and I don’t think it can do more than coast on electricity alone.

Certainly doesn’t make me want to rush out and buy the last 992.2 to avoid the new one. I wonder what the model name is? 992.3?

You're getting ahead of yourself sir! This is the 992.2.

I watched the TopGear rundown of the car when it broke last night (which was pretty good) - I couldn't see the point of it at all for the reasons others have mentioned, i.e. no all electric running, minimal electrical capacity, etc. etc. but then obviously I was forgetting that this was just a ruse to game the regs. Judged on those merits it seems to make sense other that the removal of the rear seats which is clearly just to be able to say it is only 50kg more than the old one, rather than nearly 100kg.

Styling wise I quite like the updates to the front. The rear of this GTS doesn't look as good as the prior one to me - they had fixed the issue with the fat arse on the original 992 by moving the number plate back upwards but the centralisation of the exhaust on this one makes it look too bulky again.

I thought that they were potentially going to have a N/A 4.0 with hybrid assistance (something like 2/3rds of a 918) which I would certainly have been interested in buying (post some depreciation). This one I'm not bothered about - equally given all the silly speed limiter crap that is being introduced you may say that for everything post MY23.

[mik]

Judged on those merits it seems to make sense other that the removal of the rear seats which is clearly just to be able to say it is only 50kg more than the old one, rather than nearly 100kg.

I skim watched the vid and missed this. So all 911's will be 2+0 as standard now with 2+2 as an option? End of an era....

[Mito Man]

If it had a full EV capability it would weigh 150kg more rather than just 50kg. I imagine that will happen in due course but this seems the better compromise until they're absolutely forced down that path.

[GG.]

Judged on those merits it seems to make sense other that the removal of the rear seats which is clearly just to be able to say it is only 50kg more than the old one, rather than nearly 100kg.

I skim watched the vid and missed this. So all 911's will be 2+0 as standard now with 2+2 as an option? End of an era....

No just the hybrid GTS. The normal 911/911S is still a 3.0 turbo (essentially carried over from the 992.1) and will be a 2+2 (because they don't need to game the weight figures).

[mik]

Judged on those merits it seems to make sense other that the removal of the rear seats which is clearly just to be able to say it is only 50kg more than the old one, rather than nearly 100kg.

I skim watched the vid and missed this. So all 911's will be 2+0 as standard now with 2+2 as an option? End of an era....

No just the hybrid GTS. The normal 911/911S is still a 3.0 turbo (essentially carried over from the 992.1) and will be a 2+2 (because they don't need to game the weight figures).

Ah. Oli mentions it in this vid. I can "forgive" no rear seats when there is a roll cage there, but it seems rather stoopid otherwise. The whole rear-engine packaging of the 911 being based on the desire for a 2+2 layout......

[GG.]

If it had a full EV capability it would weigh 150kg more rather than just 50kg. I imagine that will happen in due course but this seems the better compromise until they're absolutely forced down that path.

Maybe - apparently the hybrid turbo tech is 27kg and the battery pretty much the same again. There is also a normal car battery in the mix which also seems like an odd choice.

Given completely free reign I would have ditched the turbo, ditched the motor in the PDK (so there is the possibility of a manual, also saving c. 20kg), put a small front drive unit in between the front wheels to give it 4WD and torque vectoring and doubled the battery size (and make it work as the car battery too) and a short EV only range.

I guess where they are really trying to hedge their bets is that in a world where everything has to be hybrid, they still want a RWD only model, which the above solution wouldn't give you.

[Simon]

So it's a mild hybrid then? No doubt a full hybrid would've added lots of weight and the purists would've been up in arms about that too.

[Mito Man]

If it had a full EV capability it would weigh 150kg more rather than just 50kg. I imagine that will happen in due course but this seems the better compromise until they're absolutely forced down that path.

Maybe - apparently the hybrid turbo tech is 27kg and the battery pretty much the same again. There is also a normal car battery in the mix which also seems like an odd choice.

Given completely free reign I would have ditched the turbo, ditched the motor in the PDK (so there is the possibility of a manual, also saving c. 20kg), put a small front drive unit in between the front wheels to give it 4WD and torque vectoring and doubled the battery size (and make it work as the car battery too) and a short EV only range.

I guess where they are really trying to hedge their bets is that in a world where everything has to be hybrid, they still want a RWD only model, which the above solution wouldn't give you.

You have to have the 12v battery to isolate the high voltage battery. Doubling the hybrid battery would still be under 4kwh. Probably less than 6 miles of range considering the buffer zones you need. But that's too much battery to charge off the alternator/regen alone so you'd then need to make it a plug in hybrid which is a whole load of extra components. And it would have to be water cooled with its own coolant loop because it's a performance car and not a Prius. At this point you'd probably need a new larger chassis to accommodate everything. And then you have a 2 tonne car.

[GG.]

If it had a full EV capability it would weigh 150kg more rather than just 50kg. I imagine that will happen in due course but this seems the better compromise until they're absolutely forced down that path.

Maybe - apparently the hybrid turbo tech is 27kg and the battery pretty much the same again. There is also a normal car battery in the mix which also seems like an odd choice.

Given completely free reign I would have ditched the turbo, ditched the motor in the PDK (so there is the possibility of a manual, also saving c. 20kg), put a small front drive unit in between the front wheels to give it 4WD and torque vectoring and doubled the battery size (and make it work as the car battery too) and a short EV only range.

I guess where they are really trying to hedge their bets is that in a world where everything has to be hybrid, they still want a RWD only model, which the above solution wouldn't give you.

You have to have the 12v battery to isolate the high voltage battery. Doubling the hybrid battery would still be under 4kwh. Probably less than 6 miles of range considering the buffer zones you need. But that's too much battery to charge off the alternator/regen alone so you'd then need to make it a plug in hybrid which is a whole load of extra components. And it would have to be water cooled with its own coolant loop because it's a performance car and not a Prius. At this point you'd probably need a new larger chassis to accommodate everything. And then you have a 2 tonne car.

Yes I get it. What I would point out though is that Porsche seem to be gambling here on the hybridity component being satisfied by a pretty technical interpretation of what counts as hybrid assistance. Its a clever solution but if that doesn't work in the long run because the regulators want something more like a PHEV than a mild hybrid then they're fucked as the design doesn't accomodate that.

ETA - one thing where my guess calculations don't really hang together though is that the 27kw hour battery in the Panamera hybrid is 130kg. 5x the weight but 14.2x the capacity so clearly there are inefficiencies in having a very small battery from a weight to capacity perspective. Maybe that all evens out given cooling requirements as you say though.

[Mito Man]

Maybe - apparently the hybrid turbo tech is 27kg and the battery pretty much the same again. There is also a normal car battery in the mix which also seems like an odd choice.

Given completely free reign I would have ditched the turbo, ditched the motor in the PDK (so there is the possibility of a manual, also saving c. 20kg), put a small front drive unit in between the front wheels to give it 4WD and torque vectoring and doubled the battery size (and make it work as the car battery too) and a short EV only range.

I guess where they are really trying to hedge their bets is that in a world where everything has to be hybrid, they still want a RWD only model, which the above solution wouldn't give you.

You have to have the 12v battery to isolate the high voltage battery. Doubling the hybrid battery would still be under 4kwh. Probably less than 6 miles of range considering the buffer zones you need. But that's too much battery to charge off the alternator/regen alone so you'd then need to make it a plug in hybrid which is a whole load of extra components. And it would have to be water cooled with its own coolant loop because it's a performance car and not a Prius. At this point you'd probably need a new larger chassis to accommodate everything. And then you have a 2 tonne car.

Yes I get it. What I would point out though is that Porsche seem to be gambling here on the hybridity component being satisfied by a pretty technical interpretation of what counts as hybrid assistance. Its a clever solution but if that doesn't work in the long run because the regulators want something more like a PHEV than a mild hybrid then they're fucked as the design doesn't accomodate that.

It doesn't have to work in the long run though. The 992 has a little over 3 years left before the next chassis comes into production which is where the proper PHEV will be implemented.

[GG.]

You have to have the 12v battery to isolate the high voltage battery. Doubling the hybrid battery would still be under 4kwh. Probably less than 6 miles of range considering the buffer zones you need. But that's too much battery to charge off the alternator/regen alone so you'd then need to make it a plug in hybrid which is a whole load of extra components. And it would have to be water cooled with its own coolant loop because it's a performance car and not a Prius. At this point you'd probably need a new larger chassis to accommodate everything. And then you have a 2 tonne car.

Yes I get it. What I would point out though is that Porsche seem to be gambling here on the hybridity component being satisfied by a pretty technical interpretation of what counts as hybrid assistance. Its a clever solution but if that doesn't work in the long run because the regulators want something more like a PHEV than a mild hybrid then they're fucked as the design doesn't accomodate that.

It doesn't have to work in the long run though. The 992 has a little over 3 years left before the next chassis comes into production which is where the proper PHEV will be implemented.

Not sure if that's the calculation they're making though. Apparently the engine is all new with no carry over parts from the 3.0 in the current car. They wouldn't have done that just for 3 years (particularly if you look at how they've always carried engine architecture over between series in the watercooled era (996.1 to 997.1 [M96/97]; 997.2 to 991.1 [9A1]; 991.2 to 992.1 [lost interest at this point!]) so a decent bet they'd expect this to live on into the 998.1

[Jobbo]

You're getting ahead of yourself sir! This is the 992.2.

Of course it is - feels like the 992 has been out so long they've facelifted it once already, but that's probably just because virtually all the 992s from around 2022 on the approved used site have the Sport Design pack which gives them the much nicer front and rear bumpers.

With a lot more kit being standard I could be quite happy with a lightly specced Carrera as my every day car. Really not at all unhappy about this facelift; I wonder if all the rumours about it being a full hybrid were to soften us up by giving us still a proper Porsche, before the 993 (er, maybe not - whatever the successor will be called) goes PHEV I'm not even sure the Carrera has the mild hybrid features of the GTS.

The GTS does look good though; much more of a departure from the standard Carrera this time so it really fills the gap between Carrera and GT3.

[Ascender]

I didn't even pick up on the lack of back seats in the GTS.

I've long since lost track of 911 models and spec trims, performance etc, but I've also had the same thought, that a standard Carrera with some options would be all I'd ever need as an everyday car.