Cholestorol and heart disease.

[V8Granite]

So as all the males on my Dads side of the family have had heart disease of some kind, all had heart attacks at 57 years old and of the 2 left, one had a triple bypass I think and my Dad has stents after multiple heart attacks.

This has gone down the rabbit hole and it may, or may not, promote discussion into what is being discovered about it all.

My general understanding is this….

Framingham study says cholestorol bad, have less of it.
Statins reduce cholestorol they say, now millions taking them as a paper tick on the high cholestorol tick chart.
Statins don’t actually help much by removing your chance of heart disease.

Now, low cholestorol is linked to “all cause mortality” which to me is by far a worse position to be in.

Also I was surprised to see on a recent medical that red meat is put in the same category as junk food. The foods that were mentioned give me joint pain, sugar spikes during the day and to carry out a days work I have to seat so much it’s getting a bit silly.

My faith in doctors is pretty low after a few years trying to find out some issues which ultimately came about due to a supposed healthy diet.

So, is the cholestorol situation known about more commonly now or is big business and lazy doctoring keeping things ticking along with no improvement ? YouTube has loads of information but you get into an echo chamber and I’m doing a bit of an experiment.

A friend has done the same but going no meat, no seed oils and says he feels better but looks like crap and 10 years older. His father also died from a heart attack which is how this discussion really came about.

Also, has anyone paid for an MRI privately to see what your innards are up to ? I’ve had ultrasounds (luckily not pregnant) and the results were good but I’m dubious how well it works for your heart.

Exciting stuff getting older

Dave!

[ZedLeg]

My partner had a fasting blood test last week and has an appointment with the nurse on wed, expecting bad news regarding their cholesterol.

I’m 41 now and should probably start paying attention to these things.

[V8Granite]

My wife’s was 8.2, she is fitter and healthier than ever before and the cardiologist isn’t worried about her level due to her diet. I think when consuming a lot of fat you get high readings but I’d need to double check that was what he said.

Inflammation seems to be the big heart disease problem from what I can gather and statins reduce that aswell.

I’ve read so much and confused myself so other people’s experiences will be interesting.

Dave!

[Ascender]

My only recent & slightly relevant info to share as I'm most definitely not qualified at all... when they were investigating my low heart rate I saw a couple of cardiologists who both said the same things. Salt is very bad. Excess alcohol is very bad. A Mediterranean diet and being active are the best things you can do for heart health.

[Matty]

After a mate of mine did a blood pressure test because his parents had one lying around, then found out his was through the roof and ended up with an emergency appointment (and is now on meds) it got me thinking I needed to check mine as it's been 10 years and borrowed my parents.

The anxiety kicked in and didn't relax properly so first reading was 160/68...but after I managed to relax a bit it dropped to 129/68....so that's fine.
I do need to get a cholesterol test done though....you can pay via Boots but you should be able to get one via the NHS's free health screenings every 5 years once you're over 40 (but good luck with that)

I've got no history of heart disease, high cholesterol or high pressure in the family, and my diet is pretty decent so low risk....but still nice to know.

[Matty]

And yes, been told the same as Mike - Salt and Sugar are the two things that are very, very bad.

There was a thread on Twitter about diets; 50+ years ago the diets were "bad" in terms of high fat, high carb, high calories (meats, potatoes etc) but people were more active, they ate less processed food and had far, far less sugar.

[Explosive Newt]

1. Statins reduce mortality on a population level by reducing individual risk. Will a statin stop you personally dying of a heart attack or stroke, I can't say, but will it stop a chunk of the population taking them dying, absolutely.

2. In the UK, unless your cholesterol is very high, we use Qrisk to work out if someone will benefit from a statin. https://www.qrisk.org/
This takes into account not just your cholesterol (and in particular it looks at the ratio between 'good' and 'bad' cholesterol) but a variety of other factors. This targets the benefit at the higher risk so it is maximal. Q risk is nice as it gives a pictoral representation of risk with smiley or frowny faces.

3. Private heart scans in healthy people are a bit of a rabbit warren as we don't really understand how to process their implications: we know various drugs have been shown to reduce risk and improve symptoms in people who have angina / heart attacks in the context of furred up coronary arteries, but we don't know if that holds true in people who have some furring up but no symptoms. However in the face of the desire to do something, most people with asymptomatic atherosclerosis will get started on a statin and/or aspirin.

[V8Granite]

I have a lot of salt but no sugar when home, I struggle to keep away from it when away as choices are either salads which I hate or meat cooked in oil and covered in stuff.

Dave!

[Explosive Newt]

PS if anyone does want an MRI scan then volunteer for one of my studies.

[V8Granite]

1. Statins reduce mortality on a population level by reducing individual risk. Will a statin stop you personally dying of a heart attack or stroke, I can't say, but will it stop a chunk of the population taking them dying, absolutely.


2. In the UK, unless your cholesterol is very high, we use Qrisk to work out if someone will benefit from a statin. https://www.qrisk.org/
This takes into account not just your cholesterol (and in particular it looks at the ratio between 'good' and 'bad' cholesterol) but a variety of other factors. This targets the benefit at the higher risk so it is maximal. Q risk is nice as it gives a pictoral representation of risk with smiley or frowny faces.

3. Private heart scans in healthy people are a bit of a rabbit warren as we don't really understand how to process their implications: we know various drugs have been shown to reduce risk and improve symptoms in people who have angina / heart attacks in the context of furred up coronary arteries, but we don't know if that holds true in people who have some furring up but no symptoms. However in the face of the desire to do something, most people with asymptomatic atherosclerosis will get started on a statin and/or aspirin.

1. Do statins actually reduce cholestorol or do they do something else ? I read or watched something about a peer reviewed study that said it added only 4 days to the lifespan of those taking it on average. I don’t know how to see if this was all from a looney or respected doctor though.
Oh I saw it here….

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x3BzgZqF ... l0aA%3D%3D

2. What counts as high ? Mine was 6 many moons ago and I got it down to 4 (I never knew what was what, just cholestorol was all I was told) I’m now at 5.3 but eating far better but only when at home.

3. So unless something obvious comes up can it be useful ? That makes sense I suppose.

Dave!

(Replies very much appreciated from all)

[Explosive Newt]

Sorry, can't watch the vid just now as I'm at work - we know they reduce cholesterol as their target of action is a cholesterol producing enzyme in the liver. There are links to reducing inflammation / fibrosis but these are not as strong (i.e. they come from observational studies or research done in animals).

6 is high-ish (less than 5 is considered 'normal' but what is probably more important is your total cholesterol to HDL cholesterol ratio, and that in context of your other risk factors. Cholesterol is carried in lipoproteins, the high-density ones (HDL) go around hoovering up cholesterol and taking it away to the liver to be processed. Low-density lipoproteins are already full of cholesterol and wander around spilling it everywhere.

There are some small numbers of circumstances where a scan can be useful
- Where there was something terrifying lurking undetected, e.g. an artery narrowed to a pinhole, but very rare to have anything like that without any symptoms
- Where it spurs someone who really should be taking a statin / looking after themselves better into action

[V8Granite]

Thanks for the reply

So lots of cholestorol isn’t necessarily bad on its own if the ratio is right ?

If anything there is too much information about and it’s proving hard to understand it all.

Dave!

[Explosive Newt]

If anything there is too much information about and it’s proving hard to understand it all.

It borders on wellness, which is full of quacks trying to sell you bs supplements, and any widespread medication use will inevitably breed all kinds of tinfoil hatted denialists. But at the end of the day, cholesterol forms fatty plaques in arteries which block them, so it makes logical sense that too much cholesterol is bad and drugs which reduce it will be beneficial.

[Explosive Newt]

So lots of cholestorol isn’t necessarily bad on its own if the ratio is right ?

Not necessarily but less is better than lots, for the reasons mentioned above. Above 9 I would normally start a statin regardless and refer on to a metabolic medicine clinic.

And, as I say, take it all in the round with your other risk factors. Try plugging the data into Q-risk if you can.

[dinny_g]

Mine was about 7.5 but with statins - and to be fair, a lot of diet changes, it’s down to 3.3 with both readings well in the good range.

I’m also on Ramapril for Blood Pressure (which is also working - 115 to 120 over 82 to 84 which isn’t the worst for a 50 year old who needs to lose a stone or two.

[Zonda_]

PS if anyone does want an MRI scan then volunteer for one of my studies.

Where are you based? We have a mobile MRI that comes to the prison but I don’t think I can ask for a quick scan!

[Explosive Newt]

PS if anyone does want an MRI scan then volunteer for one of my studies.

Where are you based? We have a mobile MRI that comes to the prison but I don’t think I can ask for a quick scan!

Cambridge - and the mobile scanners in trucks aren't sophisticated to do cardiac MR anyway.

Although the National Institute for Health Research will not allow you to recruit prisoners to studies anyway...

[Gavster]

The problem with a lot of 'health' information online is that it can be hard to pick out the bs from the good stuff and there are a lot of people pushing their own agenda to sell courses or supplements. Then you've got the 'Doctors' who are not real doctors, pushing stories about how one food is amazing and another food is bad. On top of that you then get researchers and scientists who are credible in many ways, yet step to the side and start pushing information that's not helpful or unproven. On top of that the carnivore and plant-based communities are both equally bad at shouting down anyone who disagrees with them, however, they're both equally guilty of pushing a diet that is very easy to become malnourished on.

If you're looking for some really solid medical advice about health and nutrition then grab a copy of Saturated Facts by Dr Idz, he is a real doctor and also has a masters in nutrition research. He's very, very good at cutting through the BS.

https://amzn.to/3PHTL3p

[Holley]

PS if anyone does want an MRI scan then volunteer for one of my studies.

I'd happily volunteer for this!

[V8Granite]

The carnivore diet is an odd one, the carnivore side and the lion side are very different and the amounts you eat seem to be very different too.

Mrs Granite is now 5 months into a pure carnivore diet, feels better than ever and doing great. She can cheat by having chicken etc but I couldn’t cheat at all, it was beef or nothing.

There are too many agendas and too many miracle cures when people react differently to so many different foods that you need to be very careful and keep track of what you’re doing.

The worst thing about looking for stuff on the internet is search algorithms, it’s an horrid echo chamber.

Dave!