Primary school shenanigans

[Gavin]

My wife was the only non catholic teacher at a school run by nuns in East London. I would have to check details with her but not sure discipline there was much different to a normal decent school.

I wonder how much is "moral compass" and how much is down to the type of kid who generally goes to a religious school? Middle class schools in middle class areas generally do better than schools on sink estates with parents who don't give two hoots. I cannot imagine many parents in the latter category going to any effort to send their kids to a Better" school.

[ZedLeg]

I went to catholic schools for my whole education because my mum was catholic. Can't say I ever noticed any indoctrination. There were certain days that they would have compulsory masses but if you weren't into it you could just sit at the back and be ignored.

RE was compulsory through standard grade and you could take it at higher as well. It wasn't just bible bashing though, it was an education in theologies and philosophies from all over the world.

It wasn't just catholic kids at the high school either as it was one of the best public schools in the area.

[ste]

RE was compulsory through standard grade and you could take it at higher as well.

RE is compulsory at every primary school, it's part of the national curriculum.

[ZedLeg]

RE was compulsory through standard grade and you could take it at higher as well.

RE is compulsory at every primary school, it's part of the national curriculum.

Not at standard Grade (or what ever they call the two years before your first exams now) in high school as far as I know though.

[ste]

Indeed, that's why I wrote primary school.

[JLv3.0]

For anyone not on Twitter , you really don't want to engage Rev on this one, it will go on for days and he will dominate the hallway

I don’t know why this has become a theme for me this past week

Well this is a trigger of which I wasn't previously aware

[Rich B]

Lots of nice examples of accepting atheists and not being too bothered here, but isn’t the point of this thread that Dave! would have had to prove he attended church to get his kiddie into the first option listed?

[JLv3.0]

Yes but that was on Page 1. We're different people now.

[ste]

Depends. The school will have an admissions policy. Essentially it depends how oversubscribed it is and what the ranking order of admissions criteria are. At the top, the governement insist that children at risk, or who are statemented have priority. A faith school of any kind can then stipulate that you worship at a defined place. Then it will likely be if the applicant already has a sibling at the school and finally distance from school.

Nobody goes to church now though, so if you choose to attend church to get a jump up the ladder than that's your shout. Personally, we refused.

[NotoriousREV]

Lots of nice examples of accepting atheists and not being too bothered here, but isn’t the point of this thread that Dave! would have had to prove he attended church to get his kiddie into the first option listed?

It doesn't work like that. The school can set it's entry criteria, the same as every other school. For our C of E primary they allocate places in the following way (in order):

- Those with siblings currently already at the school
- Those who attend the attached church
- Those in the catchment area
- whoever's left fights for any places that might remain.

You absolutely do not have to attend the church to get a place, however it does give you an advantage.

As for religious indoctrination, if this is the aim of the schools, they're doing a piss-poor job of it; my 13 year old attended a C of E Primary and is currently at a C of E high school. He's a devout atheist.

As for accepting atheists, my Twitter stream this weekend included 2 different atheists telling me that I'm being an atheist wrong, repeatedly shouting at me that gods don't exist (despite me saying the same thing), and calling for the absolute banning of all religions. Apparently some people really don't understand that you can be an atheist whilst still being tolerant of other people's views (up to a point, I'll add even though I shouldn't have to but otherwise someone will use it as a strawman argument)

[Nefarious]

None of those things happen though.

I'm a governor at a C of E school and I'm a devout atheist. As are my kids who attend the school. Church schools don't get additional resources from the government, they get less, because they are funded in part by the sky-pixie crew.

Religious indoctrination? What year do you think it is?

The point is they get any funding from the state. IMO you either teach holistically and impartially, in which case you're a school and get government funding, or you base admission and syllabus on religious affiliations, in which case you're part of the PR machine for one cult or another, and you can run it as a private business.

And yes, religious indoctrination. If you compel children to attend a religion-based morning assembly, that's religious indoctrination. If you teach the doctrine of your own tribe's religion over others, that's religious indoctrination. If you insist children adhere to rituals around your particular cult (e.g. prayers before mealtimes), that's religious indoctrination. If you decorate your school with the memorabilia and symbolism of your particular cult, that's religious indoctrination. If you teach that creationism *might* even be part of the science syllabus, that's not not only religious indoctrination, that's willful dishonesty and manipulation.

[Rich B]

The schools in my area don’t have a say in the allocation according to their admissions policies - all done by the councils.

[NotoriousREV]

None of those things happen though.

I'm a governor at a C of E school and I'm a devout atheist. As are my kids who attend the school. Church schools don't get additional resources from the government, they get less, because they are funded in part by the sky-pixie crew.

Religious indoctrination? What year do you think it is?

The point is they get any funding from the state. IMO you either teach holistically and impartially, in which case you're a school and get government funding, or you base admission and syllabus on religious affiliations, in which case you're part of the PR machine for one cult or another, and you can run it as a private business.

And yes, religious indoctrination. If you compel children to attend a religion-based morning assembly, that's religious indoctrination. If you teach the doctrine of your own tribe's religion over others, that's religious indoctrination. If you insist children adhere to rituals around your particular cult (e.g. prayers before mealtimes), that's religious indoctrination. If you decorate your school with the memorabilia and symbolism of your particular cult, that's religious indoctrination. If you teach that creationism *might* even be part of the science syllabus, that's not not only religious indoctrination, that's willful dishonesty and manipulation.

And here comes my argument all over again:

Are you advocating for the removal of a so-called religious indoctrination, to be replaced by your atheist indoctrination instead?

[NotoriousREV]

Carlos, hold me back, man!

[ste]

But to be clear, if the god squad didn't put money into those schools they wouldn't be there. The governement can't afford to build new schools. Where are those kids going to be schooled?

Campaign that it's wrong, but if you or I were paying for a school to exist we'd probably stipulate criteria by which we accepted our customers. I'm interested to see hoiw this starts to play out though as it seems one of the last bastions of tolerated inequality, prejudice and descrimination.

[Nefarious]

As for religious indoctrination, if this is the aim of the schools, they're doing a piss-poor job of it; my 13 year old attended a C of E Primary and is currently at a C of E high school. He's a devout atheist.

Good on your lad!

Religious indoctrination doesn't have to mean the school is a production line for zealots, it just has to mean normalising what is objectively very bizarre behaviour (praying, collective chanting, oaths to nebulous entities, iconism etc etc) to a new generation.

[Nefarious]

None of those things happen though.

I'm a governor at a C of E school and I'm a devout atheist. As are my kids who attend the school. Church schools don't get additional resources from the government, they get less, because they are funded in part by the sky-pixie crew.

Religious indoctrination? What year do you think it is?

The point is they get any funding from the state. IMO you either teach holistically and impartially, in which case you're a school and get government funding, or you base admission and syllabus on religious affiliations, in which case you're part of the PR machine for one cult or another, and you can run it as a private business.

And yes, religious indoctrination. If you compel children to attend a religion-based morning assembly, that's religious indoctrination. If you teach the doctrine of your own tribe's religion over others, that's religious indoctrination. If you insist children adhere to rituals around your particular cult (e.g. prayers before mealtimes), that's religious indoctrination. If you decorate your school with the memorabilia and symbolism of your particular cult, that's religious indoctrination. If you teach that creationism *might* even be part of the science syllabus, that's not not only religious indoctrination, that's willful dishonesty and manipulation.

And here comes my argument all over again:

Are you advocating for the removal of a so-called religious indoctrination, to be replaced by your atheist indoctrination instead?

First paragraph of my post - "teach holistically and impartially", don't "base admission and syllabus on religious affiliations" (I'll also now add, don't compel children to participate in any specific act of religious worship). Is that my "atheist indoctrination"?

[NotoriousREV]

As for religious indoctrination, if this is the aim of the schools, they're doing a piss-poor job of it; my 13 year old attended a C of E Primary and is currently at a C of E high school. He's a devout atheist.

Good on your lad!

Religious indoctrination doesn't have to mean the school is a production line for zealots, it just has to mean normalising what is objectively very bizarre behaviour (praying, collective chanting, oaths to nebulous entities, iconism etc etc) to a new generation.

So ban everything that doesn't comply with your world view?

[ste]

Neil, loads of what you assume happens just doesn't and isn't happening.

Symbolism, yes. But every school has a school crest and moto, ban those too. Yes it's a tribe, they have their own shit logo, but that's how they brand themselves and you can take it or leave it. As i say, the government can't afford to build schools. Guess what's happening instead, businesses are building academies. Do you think they'll do it for free and leave them unbranded?

And creationism in science lessons?? Again I'll ask; what year do you think it is? I think you have an idea of what a faith school is like and it's not correct. I'm guessing its based on assumption or when you attended one 35 years ago.

[Nefarious]

As for religious indoctrination, if this is the aim of the schools, they're doing a piss-poor job of it; my 13 year old attended a C of E Primary and is currently at a C of E high school. He's a devout atheist.

Good on your lad!

Religious indoctrination doesn't have to mean the school is a production line for zealots, it just has to mean normalising what is objectively very bizarre behaviour (praying, collective chanting, oaths to nebulous entities, iconism etc etc) to a new generation.

So ban everything that doesn't comply with your world view?

Where did I say ban anything? And what "world view" have I stated, beyond objecting to specific doctrines being imposed on children via an education system which should be impartial.