Lucy Letby

[Gavster]

About to get sentenced. I find the case very confusing, because it's hard to reconcile the sheer horror of what she's done.

[mik]

The whole situation is gruesome.

Lots of finger pointing towards hospital management currently. I have no idea obviously - they may well be completely incompetent - but I do hope any further investigation appropriately assesses the inputs from her union. As I understand it, she raised formal grievances (more than one?) in relation to being moved into other roles, being "bullied" by other team members - ultimately doctors and other colleagues were forced to apologise yada yada. I can't imagine her union weren't fighting tooth and nail with the hospital management on those points....

[Simon]

It's all too gruesome. Been following pretty closely. She was a neonatal nurse, so dealing with babies who needed extra support after birth, just like our own little girl who was readmitted twice into the neonatal ward a couple of weeks ago due to feeding issues in the first couple of weeks of her life.

She got a whole life order, which is the most the judge could've given her. She will never be released.

I hope the other inmates 'get' to her or she does the decent thing herself and doesn't make herself a financial burden on the rest of the country for the next 40 years. The sooner that she is removed from this earth the better for all concerned.

[nuttinnew]

Forum rules, G

A slightly different type of cunt to Shipman, they nearly shared birthdays - Letby 04.01, Shipman 14.01.
I hope she can't off herself. For people like that it's all about control and feeling god-like. Shipman went out on his terms, I want the ability to do that removed from her.

[Gavster]

Forum rules, G

As good as...

[Explosive Newt]

I hope it shines a light on the baffling legal system we have in the UK whereby hospital managers can make decisions that cost patients their lives but have absolutely no culpability for it.

[240PP]

This is shocking reading

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66120934

[speedingfine]

Just watched the Panorama episode with her mate Dawn defending her. Love to know what she thinks the actual explanation for all those deaths are.

[Gavster]

This is shocking reading

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66120934

That really is shocking.

That culture of the hospital managers also reminds me somewhat of the culture I've seen in charities and universities, whereby the potential 'optics' of a situation, or the possible upset/outrage that might be caused, will overrule attempts for people to pursue a greater good. Also, the manager's comments where they shut down a conversation made me shudder, using their power to overrule critical thought in a literal life-or-death situation. Wasn't there rumours that Letby was being nobbed by one of the managers too?

[Swervin_Mervin]

This is shocking reading

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66120934

That really is shocking.

That culture of the hospital managers also reminds me somewhat of the culture I've seen in charities and universities, whereby the potential 'optics' of a situation, or the possible upset/outrage that might be caused, will overrule attempts for people to pursue a greater good. Also, the manager's comments where they shut down a conversation made me shudder, using their power to overrule critical thought in a literal life-or-death situation. Wasn't there rumours that Letby was being nobbed by one of the managers too?

NHS Trusts have been like this for years. And will continue to be. Not only do they consistently get away with it, with a rap on the knuckles at worst, but unlike other public bodies they're somewhat untouchable as it's the NHS, and no one is allowed to slur them.

[Explosive Newt]

This is shocking reading

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66120934

That really is shocking.

That culture of the hospital managers also reminds me somewhat of the culture I've seen in charities and universities, whereby the potential 'optics' of a situation, or the possible upset/outrage that might be caused, will overrule attempts for people to pursue a greater good. Also, the manager's comments where they shut down a conversation made me shudder, using their power to overrule critical thought in a literal life-or-death situation. Wasn't there rumours that Letby was being nobbed by one of the managers too?

NHS Trusts have been like this for years. And will continue to be. Not only do they consistently get away with it, with a rap on the knuckles at worst, but unlike other public bodies they're somewhat untouchable as it's the NHS, and no one is allowed to slur them.

And yet. If a manager deliberately short staffed a ward and patients came to harm because of there not being enough nurses / doctors, it would be the nurses/doctors looking after those patients who would face disciplinary proceedings.

[Sundayjumper]

Along with others, I'm more shocked by the management than the perpetrator.

Letby is a psychopath, she was doing psychopath things. Not an excuse - obviously - but it's some kind of diminished responsibility angle. She not reet int' heed. The rest of society has a responsibility to stop that kind of thing. And in the context of an establishment whose entire point is preventing people dying, a million times more so. She needs to be put somewhere she cannot harm anyone ever again. The whole life sentence is correct. If she doesn't make it to her next birthday ? Meh. Accidents happen.

OTOH the management, Chambers & Harvey are particularly highlighted in that article, but others will have been in the loop, when told by **SEVEN** consultants that Letby was the problem, consciously decided that killing babies was OK as long as they still get their annual bonus / stay in their job long enough to collect their pension. Their (Chambers & Harvey) statements about their "thoughts being with the children & families" is sickening. It is an insult. It is rubbing people's noses in it. They had the power to stop it. But instead they encouraged it. They took her side. They empowered her to continue killing.

So when Chambers & Harvey next end up in hospital, because they will, it happens to all of us, and as they inexplicably asphyxiate, or suffer a heart attack, and the machines don't alert anyone, I do hope there is a voice whispering "do you remember Lucy ?" into their ear.

[Simon]

Jumper saying it so much better than I could.

[Explosive Newt]

I hate that this has opened some eyes to NHS bureaucracy but it happens all the time. Decisions are made to meet targets or save money and patients bear the brunt of it.

[duncs500]

I hate that this has opened some eyes to NHS bureaucracy but it happens all the time. Decisions are made to meet targets or save money and patients bear the brunt of it.

I guess an organisation whose business is health has to make budgetary decisions that impact people's health on a macro level. Eg. if everyone had full cancer screening every week, cancer deaths would drop, but it would probably bankrupt the country.

This case (and I'm sure there are plenty more examples and that is what you are referring to @Explosive Newt) is an example where the risk to specific patients was real, present and backed up up by evidence. If you're in that situation you are obviously not going to expect she's a psychopath, but at best she's not competent to do her job relative to her peers, so you should look at the consequences of her staying in post and given how grave they were there is no option but to withdraw her from service pending investigation. It is the only decision. If you fail to act with that information it should at best be negligence charges IMO... surely there will be?

[duncs500]

To add, I admit I do have some sympathy for people who have to make cost vs human risk decisions as I am one of them. It's one of the reasons I'm changing jobs, I've had enough of that to last a lifetime.

[Gavster]

If any other organisation had enabled a baby killer in any way whatsoever, they would be utterly destroyed by it.

Obviously I love the NHS and truly hope this triggers some of the reforms that it so dearly needs. I fear that's wishful thinking though.

[Swervin_Mervin]

To add, I admit I do have some sympathy for people who have to make cost vs human risk decisions as I am one of them. It's one of the reasons I'm changing jobs, I've had enough of that to last a lifetime.

It's very much not just cost decisions though Duncs. There are fuck ups every day in the NHS across the country - that's to be expected as those that work in it are still only as human as the rest of us. The issue is that the default course of action in all cases is not to try to investigate whether there's a problem or a failing, but to cover it up at all costs. If that destroys patients, their relatives, or those that work in the NHS, is of no concern.

What's tragic is that it's taken for someone to murder premature babies on a neo-natal ward to open up wider scrutiny of that very problem.

I'll go oout on a limb and say that this won't change anything though. Although I really, really hope it does.

[duncs500]

Yeah, I don't disagree with that or anything anyone is saying. There are major issues with the NHS and how it's managed, there are major issues with how a lot of other public sector organisations are managed, but the NHS is where the stakes are highest.

The only point that some will disagree with me on is that the solution in my opinion is not just to throw more money at it. Probably not the right thread for it, but it seems relevant.

[duncs500]

In this specific case it's about some key individuals utterly and intentionally failing in their duty of care, and they can be dealt with, but once you get past that you need to start looking at how you stop it happening again which involves culture and behaviour. Things that can take decades to change.