Fart tax.

[nuttinnew]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61741352

[Gavster]

Carbon taxes, especially on high environmental impact foods like beef, are inevitable over the coming decade in more countries, especially if an agriculture heavy country like NZ implements something that works.

[Explosive Newt]

As a man with an active bowel, I’m in a lot of trouble if this is extended to humans.

[mik]

It’s been announced that any Viz comic releases in NZ will carry a price increase of 30% for any issue containing Johnny Fartpants.

[DeskJockey]

Carbon taxes, especially on high environmental impact foods like beef, are inevitable over the coming decade in more countries, especially if an agriculture heavy country like NZ implements something that works.

Agreed. Makes sense too. Can someone invent a pair of pants/an insert that converts gaseous bottom end output to something less harmful (both at the micro and macro levels)?

[ZedLeg]

Not going to rant about it but the flippant "fart tax" reporting of this has been bugging me , it's been well known for years that methane from animal farming has a big impact on climate change.

[Gavster]

Not going to rant about it but the flippant "fart tax" reporting of this has been bugging me , it's been well known for years that methane from animal farming has a big impact on climate change.

Totally agree, it's quite belittling when it's such an important policy to get support for. The next challenge is to get a carbon tax which actively redistributes the revenue into nature positive/net zero initiatives in other areas of food.

[Mito Man]

Carbon taxes, especially on high environmental impact foods like beef, are inevitable over the coming decade in more countries, especially if an agriculture heavy country like NZ implements something that works.

Agreed. Makes sense too. Can someone invent a pair of pants/an insert that converts gaseous bottom end output to something less harmful (both at the micro and macro levels)?

They don’t really fart so much (unless it’s always silent?) but ruminants do burp quite a bit.

[Carlos]

Not going to rant about it but the flippant "fart tax" reporting of this has been bugging me , it's been well known for years that methane from animal farming has a big impact on climate change.

Totally agree, it's quite belittling when it's such an important policy to get support for. The next challenge is to get a carbon tax which actively redistributes the revenue into nature positive/net zero initiatives in other areas of food.

Rubbish. It's just something to trigger the tofu munchers as they don't want to talk about avocados killing the world.

[Swervin_Mervin]

Aren't we back again to the issue of a simple heavy handed and unforgiving approach as opposed to introducing measures which should more genuinely tackle the issue? Our approach jsut seems to be to slap a tax on anything we think is bad, as though that's going to solve the problem - it won't. See the sugar tax for one. It's not the raising of cattle that alone creates the methane issue - it's the nature of the apporach to raising cattle and the scale of it.

So if you have one cattle farmer working in isuch a way as to actually reduce the relative levels of methane production and overall carbon footprint, and one that works intensively, why should the former be penalisesd to the same extent? And I'm sure it's probably been done by someone, but have the calculations been done on the impact of plant-based food production, at the scale it would need to be ramped up to to compensate for any reduction in reliance on meat production?

We need a wider, and crucially sensible, conversation about how we produce our meat more sustainably and how we reduce our meat consumption.

[ZedLeg]

I guess the issue is that to have a sensible conversation about it, we'd have to get to a consensus that climate change is being exacerbated by humans and we need to do something about it. Which seems practically impossible at this point.

[Swervin_Mervin]

I guess the issue is that to have a sensible conversation about it, we'd have to get to a consensus that climate change is being exacerbated by humans and we need to do something about it. Which seems practically impossible at this point.

I think you're right to a degree. I also think it's inmpossible to have nuanced debate anymore. You're either one extreme or the other. Reasonableness has gone out of the window.

Reminds me, I saw someone tweeting this week that, as a vegetarian, they're increasingly seeing fewer options when eating out - it's either you're a full blown carnivore or a hardcore vegan. Not something I'd ever given thought to before - vegans are killing off the vegetarians

[ZedLeg]

I've found folk going the other way recently, a lot of people who were vegans have back tracked to eating eggs, dairy or even meat and fish again

I'm putting it down to people wanting comfort foods during the whole covid times.

The restaurant thing is interesting, it used to be really hard to get decent vegan food even when there was good veggie options. I guess maybe now that veganism or "plant based diets" are more visible the easy thing to do is just offer that.

[mik]

I guess the issue is that to have a sensible conversation about it, we'd have to get to a consensus that climate change is being exacerbated by humans and we need to do something about it. Which seems practically impossible at this point.

I think you're right to a degree. I also think it's inmpossible to have nuanced debate anymore. You're either one extreme or the other. Reasonableness has gone out of the window.

Reminds me, I saw someone tweeting this week that, as a vegetarian, they're increasingly seeing fewer options when eating out - it's either you're a full blown carnivore or a hardcore vegan. Not something I'd ever given thought to before - vegans are killing off the vegetarians

There was an item on the radio about this recent too (R4 I think). Veggies who still eat dairy etc are only being offered dishes cooked with vegan cheese or whatever and they aren’t happy.

[ZedLeg]

It sounds like folk looking for stuff to moan about tbh, saying that I don't eat dairy so it doesn't affect me at all.

[V8Granite]

Steak steak and more steak, with a few eggs and a pint of milk.

Dave!

[Gavster]

Aren't we back again to the issue of a simple heavy handed and unforgiving approach as opposed to introducing measures which should more genuinely tackle the issue? Our approach jsut seems to be to slap a tax on anything we think is bad, as though that's going to solve the problem - it won't. See the sugar tax for one. It's not the raising of cattle that alone creates the methane issue - it's the nature of the apporach to raising cattle and the scale of it.

So if you have one cattle farmer working in isuch a way as to actually reduce the relative levels of methane production and overall carbon footprint, and one that works intensively, why should the former be penalisesd to the same extent? And I'm sure it's probably been done by someone, but have the calculations been done on the impact of plant-based food production, at the scale it would need to be ramped up to to compensate for any reduction in reliance on meat production?

We need a wider, and crucially sensible, conversation about how we produce our meat more sustainably and how we reduce our meat consumption.

Trust me, there are lots of conversations, both publicly and privately. It's just not a very popular area of food discussion and rarely makes it into big news outlets. And ultimately, there is very little political will in the UK to take any action.

'Hard' measures like taxes are usually quite successful in policy terms for creating behaviour change or forcing manufacturers into reformulation of products. Yes, it's heavy handed, however at the other end of the scale, 'soft' measures like Nudge and information campaigns are ineffective in creating mass change. Some of the most powerful approaches take too long to be politically feasible (especially with current Gov). For example having free school meals with sustainable procurement standards built-in, alongside increased food education would create a generational shift in perceptions of food. Direct financial incentives to farmers which subsidise fruit, veg and legume production would also have a win-win-win of encouraging sustainable diets, lowering the price to help the cost of living and likely benefit the health of shoppers too as they'd buy more. No chance of the Gov doing that though.

Plant based wholefood production impacts are inordinately lower than meat, the 2018 paper by Poore and Nemececk https://users.ox.ac.uk/~quee3380/Scienc ... script.pdf is one of the gold standards looking at the impact of production. Where it gets a little hazy is the impact of ultra-processed plant-based protein products, like beyond meat etc. The manufacturers claim they're more environmentally friendly, however their production systems are quite new and not fully assessed, and there's evidence that ultra-processed foods are not good for us, or the environment. Make no mistake, foods like beyond burger are ultra-processed foods. A lot of global organisations advocating for sustainable diets are wary of promoting them for this very reason.

I work on OmniAction https://omniaction.org which is advocating for metrics to be mandated where we measure and report the full system impacts of all foods. That's environment, land use, nutrition, labour and food safety. Creating a system like this at a global level allows information to be provided to consumers, which might have a little impact, but more crucially, it allows investors to make educated decisions and provides the data metrics for measures such as taxes to be applied fairly.

And yes, this is exactly what I do for work I'm currently building sustainable food policy recommendations for targeting 2050

[dinny_g]

Gav, little aside question.

What’s your food history?? Are you a chef etc. of just an really keen enthusiastic amateur??

Amateur initially of course…

[Gavster]

Started in hospitality at 18 but quickly realised I didn't want to be in customer-facing food service. Worked in kitchens briefly but didn't want to do that long term, it's a hard life. I then spent 15+ years working in indsutrial/graphic design before coming back to food. Became a food blogger for a few years, which led to food photography gigs, as well as paid food writing in a few magazines. Then I did a masters in food policy, which led into the current work.

The weird thing about working in food policy is that you're largely removed from the gastronimcal, physical presence of food. The work is largely thinking , researching and writing about food, rather than eating it. It's only from the social media work that I get involved in the gastronomical side of things.

[dinny_g]

Cool - I follow you on TikTok so see the social stuff