Ukraine

[nuttinnew]

So it turns out that 'Arnold' is quite an extraordinary communicator.



Who knew?

Hit 'em right in the feels. The speech writer(s) did a fine job, and his time acting and in politics prepared him well for delivering it.

[Mito Man]

Hopefully it gets to its intended audience.

[nuttinnew]

Anonymous'll probably put it on state tv.

[Simon]

Just need it to cut in when PooTin is making one of his speeches to the nation.

[Gavster]

Rumours I'm hearing from inside Russia is that Putin's rhetoric and propaganda is succeeding in pushing a narrative onto the Russian population that everyone in the world hates Russia, which is why we're all giving them such a hard time about their 'defence' of Russians and de-nazification of Ukraine. There are more and more restrictions on communications and freedom of speech appearing within Russia which gives Putin even more power to convince his country that everyone is against them. It's quite dangerous because it means the Russian population will become even more willing to fight.

[GG.]

everyone in the world hates Russia

That's not wildly inaccurate - well, in Europe and the West at least.

[mik]

everyone in the world hates Russia

That's not wildly inaccurate - well, in Europe and the West at least.

I don't think that's true though. I've visited Russia several times (what a massive PITA the visa process is) and I know a number of Russian people. I certainly don't hate all of them or their country. Their leader is a TAUC however.

[GG.]

Look I'm not tarring a whole population with the same brush and I'm sure there are very large numbers of open minded Russians who absolutely deplore what is going on, but (and its a big but), there are also large swathes of the Russian populace that support Putin and his government. They're certainly brainwashed but they pop up regularly in interviews by Western news agencies and therefore colour the outside world's view of the country and its people. This is an interesting article on the point: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/thi ... s-putin-s - and again here by the LSE for those that are disinclined to read a Spectator article https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2022 ... n-ukraine/

Given the vast majority of people in the West haven't travelled to Russia and know few if any Russians - I expect Westerners on the whole hold extremely negative views of Russia and unfortunately, by extension, its people. I'm not saying that mutual hatred is a good thing or does anything other than exacerbate the situation but sadly I think it's the truth and it is something that clearly Putin feeds off - focus on a foreign enemy is classic demagogue strategy.

[ZedLeg]

Sounds like you're drinking the kool aid a bit tbh GG.

I've known a few Russians over the years and they've been good people. Russia, Ukraine and other countries in that area all have issues with extreme nationalism but it can be argued that the UK does too.

This kind of talk is how governments convince their populations to go to war, it's not any smarter because you're in the west.

[dinny_g]

OK so it was over 20 years ago but I spent a week in Russia in the late 90's and had an absolute blast. All of the locals I met were warm and engaging and equally interested in telling you about their country (with pride) and asking about mine. I spend St Patricks day in Rosie O'Grady's in Moscow as the only Irish person in the entire bar (with the exception of the bar manager) so as you can imagine, I had lots of friends that night. - and my worst ever hangover. Waaay too much Jameson

Fascinating country but very difficult to visit without someone with local knowledge who spoke the lingo (although this may not be so much of an issue any more)

Prior to all this, it was a place I wanted to back to as I'd only spend 24 hours in Moscow - we were based in St Petersburg. Now, not so sure

Edit - probably still would to be honest.

[Delphi]

I've met a few really nice Russians through judo and work. Conversely, the ones I encountered in Na Trang in Vietnam were all massive cunts, swaggering about the place like they owned it.

[Mito Man]

About 8 years ago almost 1/3 of my neighbours in London were Russian. I only came across them when walking my dog or in the lift (in typical Londoner fashion) but always had a nice chat and they were otherwise pretty inconspicuous.
Slowly they’ve all but been replaced with the wealthy Arab population who are terrible human beings in comparison.

[Shlergen]

I spent quite a lot of time in Russia with work - 10 year ago or so. People were/are lovely.

[RobYob]

I spent quite a lot of time in Russia with work - 10 year ago or so. People were/are lovely.

Same but 5 years ago. I imagine they're all looking at silenced production lines wondering how the fuck it happened (they do know it's the fault of "mad grandpa")

St Pete's is an stunning city that I had hoped to take the family on holiday to one day ..

As a gross generalisation through they have a massive streak of fatalism in their culture, guess it's the cultural coping mechanism of bring fucked over so often throughout history.

Fingers crossed none of them get conscripted.

The quicker mad grandpa gets hurled from the walls of the Kremlin the better.

[Gavster]

Look I'm not tarring a whole population with the same brush and I'm sure there are very large numbers of open minded Russians who absolutely deplore what is going on, but (and its a big but), there are also large swathes of the Russian populace that support Putin and his government. They're certainly brainwashed but they pop up regularly in interviews by Western news agencies and therefore colour the outside world's view of the country and its people. This is an interesting article on the point: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/thi ... s-putin-s - and again here by the LSE for those that are disinclined to read a Spectator article https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2022 ... n-ukraine/

Given the vast majority of people in the West haven't travelled to Russia and know few if any Russians - I expect Westerners on the whole hold extremely negative views of Russia and unfortunately, by extension, its people. I'm not saying that mutual hatred is a good thing or does anything other than exacerbate the situation but sadly I think it's the truth and it is something that clearly Putin feeds off - focus on a foreign enemy is classic demagogue strategy.

There's a key point to delineate here, because while Putin's narrative exists internally in his country and he does indeed feed off it, we should absolutely never be perpetuating it ourselves, outside of the country. Russians are like everyone else in the world, they're good people trying to do their best, however, those inside the country are being brainwashed under increasingly strict state-controlled censorship. That's not their fault, it's Putin's.

Saying that a large number of Western people probably do hate Russia runs too close to racism for my liking. For example, it's got all the markings of the hate against Muslims because a few Muslims were terrorists. We all know that some naive people can hold those kinds of views, but we should be fighting against that kind of thinking because it's very unhelpful to the people who become victimised by association.

For example, on Tuesday night my girlfriend (She's lived in the UK 20 years, but was born in Russia and her family all still live there) was told by a neighbour "All Russians are stupid" and "I used to be in the TA and could still shoot a couple of Russians if I had to", when we had just got back from Poland after helping Ukrainian refugees get to safety for a week. He didn't care that she was anti-war and had been actively helping people, he was judging her simply based upon where she was born and then being hateful based upon that.

We should be arguing that Putin and his current path of regressing Russia back to Soviet-era censorship and propaganda is the one we should hate, rather than Russians.

[GG.]

Look I'm not tarring a whole population with the same brush and I'm sure there are very large numbers of open minded Russians who absolutely deplore what is going on, but (and its a big but), there are also large swathes of the Russian populace that support Putin and his government. They're certainly brainwashed but they pop up regularly in interviews by Western news agencies and therefore colour the outside world's view of the country and its people. This is an interesting article on the point: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/thi ... s-putin-s - and again here by the LSE for those that are disinclined to read a Spectator article https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2022 ... n-ukraine/

Given the vast majority of people in the West haven't travelled to Russia and know few if any Russians - I expect Westerners on the whole hold extremely negative views of Russia and unfortunately, by extension, its people. I'm not saying that mutual hatred is a good thing or does anything other than exacerbate the situation but sadly I think it's the truth and it is something that clearly Putin feeds off - focus on a foreign enemy is classic demagogue strategy.

Saying that a large number of Western people probably do hate Russia runs too close to racism for my liking.

I don't really want to get into a heated argument about this but I think you're getting a bit muddled here with what I'm saying. I'm commenting on what I believe is likely is the case regarding the general public's attitude to Russia, not what I personally think and I don't think we disagree. The depressing story about your girlfriend is rather reinforcing the point that people don't view Putin, Russia and the Russian population separately, which is what I was trying to say.

[Gavster]

Yeah, I get what you're saying about perception vs reality.

[jamcg]

Look I'm not tarring a whole population with the same brush and I'm sure there are very large numbers of open minded Russians who absolutely deplore what is going on, but (and its a big but), there are also large swathes of the Russian populace that support Putin and his government. They're certainly brainwashed but they pop up regularly in interviews by Western news agencies and therefore colour the outside world's view of the country and its people. This is an interesting article on the point: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/thi ... s-putin-s - and again here by the LSE for those that are disinclined to read a Spectator article https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2022 ... n-ukraine/

Given the vast majority of people in the West haven't travelled to Russia and know few if any Russians - I expect Westerners on the whole hold extremely negative views of Russia and unfortunately, by extension, its people. I'm not saying that mutual hatred is a good thing or does anything other than exacerbate the situation but sadly I think it's the truth and it is something that clearly Putin feeds off - focus on a foreign enemy is classic demagogue strategy.

There's a key point to delineate here, because while Putin's narrative exists internally in his country and he does indeed feed off it, we should absolutely never be perpetuating it ourselves, outside of the country. Russians are like everyone else in the world, they're good people trying to do their best, however, those inside the country are being brainwashed under increasingly strict state-controlled censorship. That's not their fault, it's Putin's.

Saying that a large number of Western people probably do hate Russia runs too close to racism for my liking. For example, it's got all the markings of the hate against Muslims because a few Muslims were terrorists. We all know that some naive people can hold those kinds of views, but we should be fighting against that kind of thinking because it's very unhelpful to the people who become victimised by association.

For example, on Tuesday night my girlfriend (She's lived in the UK 20 years, but was born in Russia and her family all still live there) was told by a neighbour "All Russians are stupid" and "I used to be in the TA and could still shoot a couple of Russians if I had to", when we had just got back from Poland after helping Ukrainian refugees get to safety for a week. He didn't care that she was anti-war and had been actively helping people, he was judging her simply based upon where she was born and then being hateful based upon that.

We should be arguing that Putin and his current path of regressing Russia back to Soviet-era censorship and propaganda is the one we should hate, rather than Russians.

Next time you get into anything like this- ask if we should judge all British people by the bumbling idiot that is boris……

[GG.]

Again - you're using the normative statement "should" when I was passing comment about what I believe objectively is the case, totally separate from whether that is fair or equitable to tar everyone in the nation with the same brush on account of terrible suffering that has been inflicted in their name and which they do not necessarily support. To answer your question reformulated to relate to what I was actually talking about - i.e. the opinion of the person in the street -- do people in other countries hold negative opinions about the British public generally because of Boris and what they understand to be xenophobic motivations behind Brexit (true or not)? I'm absolutely sure they do.

If we elevate that to a similar level as to what is going on here - the Conservatives decide to mobilise the army to invade and shell the shit out the Republic of Ireland and there were external opinion polls showing that 43% of the public were against but 34% pro and the rest undecided as to whether that was a good idea, then I'm pretty sure general opinion would be as negative to the people of the UK as it is currently to Russia, unfair as that may be on those that vehemently disagree with what would be going on.

[Beany]

Aside; it's been a bit tricky to research this as a normie on the outside, but Ros Atkins has had more luck getting to the bottom of the whole nazi thing in Ukraine, specifically the Azov battalion who get a lot of eyes from the lefty loonies.



TLDW, but it is worth taking ten minutes to watch it; there's basically no bigger a nazi issue in Ukraine than anywhere else, and from what I've seen, there's probably a bigger nazi (with a little n) element in US open politics - actual elected officials who are openly authoritarian, anti immigrant, anti free speech, etc - than there is in Ukraine, and that's before your get to the armed forces, many pockets of whom are actively white supremacist.

Literally burning books about the Holocaust or in the open in America

https://observer.com/2022/02/book-banni ... tennessee/

Ukraine is no different to anywhere else basically.