The Hybrids are Coming.……and I not excited

[SSO]

Just posted a new blog on the coming of the next generation hybrid supercars. I have a few major concerns on if they will be able to deliver a better driving experience:

https://karenable.com/the-hybrids-are-c ... t-excited/

Thoughts, comments?

[RobYob]

They're the answer to the question "How do we shift new stock", numbers are bigger, toys are shinier, tech advances are... meh.

I imagine everyone that reads/read evo probably watched Gordon Murray's speeches on what he wanted from the T50 program and had, a moment... or several.

However only someone like him can get away with it (maybe).

A Hybrid I would get excited about;
Bike engined Atom/Exige revving to a gazzilion rpm with flat shift box and hybridisation to do low speed, torque fill and reverse.
Ideally with a complex transmission so the ICE could do both the ULTIMATE POWER!and range extender jobs.
I'll admit that's a niche of a niche of a niche and would be a terrible sales proposition should anyone be mad enough to spend the vast ammounts required to develop one.

I AM far more hopefully of interesting "evo" cars coming once we're past the hybrid era. Electrification, if it isn't regulated into the ground could be a new democratisation of power for niche vehicles. EV conversions of old cars have already made some pretty cool stuff.

Which reminds me I must finish reading that MegaWatt thread.

[V8Granite]

All I see with performance hybrids is how it’s extra weight and I wonder what they could have done without the motor and battery.

No doubt a very old tech view but the IC engine isn’t at the end of its development cycle and there is lots more performance and flexibility to be had.

Dave!

[Beany]

I can't help wondering what's become of Koenenegnnenngngsiggs pneumatic drivetrain system, as that seemed to offer quite some benefits for the old fashioned IC engine.

I know they've got licensing etc for it, but I can't help thinking that it might be one of those things where it'd be more useful to the industry at large to just open source the basics of it and let everyone have a crack at it - particularly if it helps everyone with fleet emissions and general economy.

Anyone heard any more about it, or has it just crawled off into a corner to die?

[SSO]

All I see with performance hybrids is how it’s extra weight and I wonder what they could have done without the motor and battery.

No doubt a very old tech view but the IC engine isn’t at the end of its development cycle and there is lots more performance and flexibility to be had.

Dave!

I was having a discussion with an auto engineer the other day and he indicated that based on his calculations both the P1 and LaFerrari would be faster without their hybrid systems.

[jamcg]

I can't help wondering what's become of Koenenegnnenngngsiggs pneumatic drivetrain system, as that seemed to offer quite some benefits for the old fashioned IC engine.

I know they've got licensing etc for it, but I can't help thinking that it might be one of those things where it'd be more useful to the industry at large to just open source the basics of it and let everyone have a crack at it - particularly if it helps everyone with fleet emissions and general economy.

Anyone heard any more about it, or has it just crawled off into a corner to die?

See also mazdas compression ignition petrol engines

[mik]

I can't help wondering what's become of Koenenegnnenngngsiggs pneumatic drivetrain system, as that seemed to offer quite some benefits for the old fashioned IC engine.

It wasn’t new though - Lotus were working on AVT Active Valve Timing back in the mid-noughties

Quick google found this
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/P ... 97a70bf5a9

[Simon]

I can't help wondering what's become of Koenenegnnenngngsiggs pneumatic drivetrain system, as that seemed to offer quite some benefits for the old fashioned IC engine.

I know they've got licensing etc for it, but I can't help thinking that it might be one of those things where it'd be more useful to the industry at large to just open source the basics of it and let everyone have a crack at it - particularly if it helps everyone with fleet emissions and general economy.

Anyone heard any more about it, or has it just crawled off into a corner to die?

See also mazdas compression ignition petrol engines

Which are now in production and use in vehicles.

[jamcg]

I can't help wondering what's become of Koenenegnnenngngsiggs pneumatic drivetrain system, as that seemed to offer quite some benefits for the old fashioned IC engine.

I know they've got licensing etc for it, but I can't help thinking that it might be one of those things where it'd be more useful to the industry at large to just open source the basics of it and let everyone have a crack at it - particularly if it helps everyone with fleet emissions and general economy.

Anyone heard any more about it, or has it just crawled off into a corner to die?

See also mazdas compression ignition petrol engines

Which are now in production and use in vehicles.

I know, I meant in terms of sharing the technology

[Beany]

I can't help wondering what's become of Koenenegnnenngngsiggs pneumatic drivetrain system, as that seemed to offer quite some benefits for the old fashioned IC engine.

It wasn’t new though - Lotus were working on AVT Active Valve Timing back in the mid-noughties

I'm not questioning the provenance (or even remotely interested - people have dicked with hypervariable timing for ages), just where the fuck has it gone. Koenegsigg were at one point claiming it was REVOLUTIONARY. So revolutionary that it's on one of their hypercars - I think - and a Saab Turbo somewhere in Sweden, and seemingly, nowhere else.

[mik]

Why hadn’t it hit mainstream use? Maybe the timing still isn’t right?

[Beany]

Atrocious. I love it.

[SSO]

I'm not questioning the provenance (or even remotely interested - people have dicked with hypervariable timing for ages), just where the fuck has it gone. Koenegsigg were at one point claiming it was REVOLUTIONARY. So revolutionary that it's on one of their hypercars - I think - and a Saab Turbo somewhere in Sweden, and seemingly, nowhere else.

Koenigsegg has claimed to have developed multiple pieces of revolutionary engineering. None of which seems to generate any interest in being adopted outside of Koenigsegg.

[Beany]

Yeah, they do seem to be very innovative, in things that people didn't seem to see a need for - hollow CF wheels for example.

A nice bit of engineering, but how relevant in the real world when costs are taken into account, against a decent boggo lightweight wheel?

[SSO]

Yeah, they do seem to be very innovative, in things that people didn't seem to see a need for - hollow CF wheels for example.

A nice bit of engineering, but how relevant in the real world when costs are taken into account, against a decent boggo lightweight wheel?

Hence their dependency on supporting ever increasing values.

[V8Granite]

Wasn’t their flexifuel sensor wholely designed by them and now used by a few tuning companies or did they not invent that ?

Dave!

[SSO]

Wasn’t their flexifuel sensor wholely designed by them and now used by a few tuning companies or did they not invent that ?

Dave!

I think they did but it hasn't exactly been widely adopted.

[Simon]

Although supercars of any flavour are beyond irrelevance for my budget, I'm excited by the idea of hybrid supercars. I think we've already reached 'peak supercar' now that all manufacturers have already arrived at just about the same design and performance. Throwing hybrids into the mix is a good way to stir the pot of invention again and make things interesting.

[SSO]

Although supercars of any flavour are beyond irrelevance for my budget, I'm excited by the idea of hybrid supercars. I think we've already reached 'peak supercar' now that all manufacturers have already arrived at just about the same design and performance. Throwing hybrids into the mix is a good way to stir the pot of invention again and make things interesting.

I would tend to disagree, hybrids give manufacturers the opportunity to continue to be lazy in terms of just adding more power to compensate for weight gains. I would rather see them concentrate on getting weight down and making smaller better handling cars.

[RobYob]

Although supercars of any flavour are beyond irrelevance for my budget, I'm excited by the idea of hybrid supercars. I think we've already reached 'peak supercar' now that all manufacturers have already arrived at just about the same design and performance. Throwing hybrids into the mix is a good way to stir the pot of invention again and make things interesting.

I would tend to disagree, hybrids give manufacturers the opportunity to continue to maximise shareholder value in terms of just adding more power to compensate for weight gains. I would rather see them concentrate on getting weight down and making smaller better handling cars.

FTFY

It'd be an interesting exercise to dig around in the BOM of a 720 or something and just nuke the budget. Composite everything; carbotanium, sicilon-carbide fibre, aerogel the full fantasy "mil spec"*. How much weight could you save while retaining the same dimenions and performance. Pulling a number completely from my behind I would say it's probably only around a third and the price would be at least an order of magnitude higher. Be nice to have a chat with someone from F1 and get their fantasy materials list.

Actually, on 2nd thoughts, this has already been done. It's a T50.


*Yes I know the old adage about that actually being the cheapest bidder who can juuuust(About) meet spec.