OV9

Posted: **Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:59 pm**

Has this always been an issue but where I live I’ve been shielded from it? Is there a particular reason this appears to be more newsworthy lately ?

I read about a Jewish paper where they mentioned they were afraid if Corbyn got in power it would not be safe for Jews. That is quite a statement to make so there must be a lot more history about than just what has been reported recently.

Now I see Labour and Conservative bashing as believable as each other but it seems like a pretty nasty accusation.

Is this a situation that has risen in the last 20 years or so or is it just nasty journalism ?

Dave!

Posted: **Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:58 pm**

it is utter bollocks.

Posted: **Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:13 pm**

Antisemitism has been around since Judaism stopped being a dominant religion in terms of numbers and it is every bit as nasty and ugly as you'd expect. From every day terms that people use without thinking to the Nazis and conspiracy nutters.

While both the Tories and Labour have issues, that is true of all parties, my view is that it is a diversionary tactic, making Labour focus on it and distracting from Tory issues and being an effective opposition. I don't think they're worse or better (aforementioned nutters aside) than any other mainstream party. They have, however, handled it rather badly.

Posted: **Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:17 pm**

I was actually googling it the other day trying to understand the actual events that led to the accusations. It seemed to me more to do with opinions on Palestine rather than specific “I hate Jews” type statements?

Posted: **Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:36 pm**

There’s definitely some history there as I’m surprised how many people are being involved in it all.

It was nice not reading the papers for a few weeks but boredom took me to it. I think it’s nicer to not no in a lot of cases.

Dave!

Posted: **Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:47 pm**

Gavin wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:58 pm it is utter bollocks.

Yeah right.

Dave, take some time and watch this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0006p8c

Posted: **Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:50 pm**

V8Granite wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:59 pm
I read about a Jewish paper..

Where did you read it, what was the source?

Posted: **Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:56 am**

unzippy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:50 pm
V8Granite wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:59 pm
I read about a Jewish paper..
Where did you read it, what was the source?

I think it was this one....

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/don- ... -lj3pt9gmm

If not it was similar, an overview of what was apparently written in the paper.

I can’t watch the BBC video till I get home as my VPN won’t let me.

Dave!

Posted: **Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:36 am**

The Times is owned by Rupert Murdoch's News International. They slag off the Labour party for fun.

Posted: **Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:14 am**

unzippy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:36 am The Times is owned by Rupert Murdoch's News International. They slag off the Labour party for fun.

What about Luciana Berger or Dame Louise Ellman? Lord Turnberg, Lord Triesman or Lord Darzi?

The Times didn’t make up the story, it’s an actual thing that’s happened. The Jewish Chronicle are claiming 87% of Jewish people in the UK believe Corbyn’s Labour is anti-Semitic.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to achieve with your angry denial.

Posted: **Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:39 am**

I don’t blame them. Corbyn joined protests with Palestinians and attended their memorials. He seems rather chummy with Hamas, who are a rebranded IS. Pretty sure he backed the campaign to not buy products from companies which have Israeli owners and wanted to sanction Israel.

Posted: **Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:46 am**

That's the thing though. While I'm not denying the reports of anti-semitism, conflating not supporting Israel with anti-semitism does put a seed of doubt in the claims.

Posted: **Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:58 am**

You could argue that making an effort to not support the nationals of a country is discrimination which would meet the definition for it.

Posted: **Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:59 am**

ZedLeg wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:46 am That's the thing though. While I'm not denying the reports of anti-semitism, conflating not supporting Israel with anti-semitism does put a seed of doubt in the claims.

It’s a complex discussion as I think it’s essentially Zionism vs anti-Zionism, which is at least as complex as the whole island of Ireland thing. If you’re a Jewish Zionist and someone tells you they’re anti-Israel, you’re probably going to view that as anti-Semitic.

Posted: **Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:05 am**

NotoriousREV wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:59 am
ZedLeg wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:46 am That's the thing though. While I'm not denying the reports of anti-semitism, conflating not supporting Israel with anti-semitism does put a seed of doubt in the claims.
It’s a complex discussion as I think it’s essentially Zionism vs anti-Zionism, which is at least as complex as the whole island of Ireland thing. If you’re a Jewish Zionist and someone tells you they’re anti-Israel, you’re probably going to view that as anti-Semitic.

Yep, incredibly complex. And arguably something that needs to be settled on, internationally, in order for progress to be made out there - but that'll never happen. You can't have a situation where criticism of one state or support of another is viewed as anti-Semitic as it allows one to operate without serious question and the other to never drag itself out of the mire.

Posted: **Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:24 am**

It is far wider than Israel/Palestine though.

The hard left are anti-capitalist in a way that the moderate or Blairite left fundamentally are not. The anti-capitalism movement has strong strains of anti-semitism woven within it centered around the conspiracy theories of pan-global billionaire Jewish financiers such as the Rothschild family, for example.

Corbyn's post of approval of the anti-semitic mural in East London was a good example of the issue - even if Corbyn isn't an anti-semite himself, he is actively promoting a hard-left worldview that harbours significant anti-semitism within it. Israel is part of the whole but only one part. His actions may be explained as a 'mean to an end' to overthrow capitalism and install a socialist replacement but he is accepting of the anti-semites within that movement as a result. That's the nub of the issue.

For what its worth, the artist of the mural said that it was all about class: "My mural is about class and privilege. The banker group is made up of Jewish and white Anglos." but yet it expresses that through stereotypical racist/antisemitic images of men with big noses and beards/moustaches. Its a hollow and wholly unsatisfactory justification and you would imagine anyone with such finely hones 'anti-racist' sensibilities such as Corbyn to see it for what it really was.

Posted: **Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:26 am**

NotoriousREV wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:59 am
ZedLeg wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:46 am That's the thing though. While I'm not denying the reports of anti-semitism, conflating not supporting Israel with anti-semitism does put a seed of doubt in the claims.
It’s a complex discussion as I think it’s essentially Zionism vs anti-Zionism, which is at least as complex as the whole island of Ireland thing. If you’re a Jewish Zionist and someone tells you they’re anti-Israel, you’re probably going to view that as anti-Semitic.

I agree to a point, there are people who hide their anti-semitism behind criticism of Israel but there are also people who use claims of anti-semitism to shutdown any debate on the things the Israeli government are doing.

As you say it's a complex issue.

Posted: **Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:27 am**

Would anyone here who is Jewish like to offer a direct, first hand view ??

Posted: **Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:32 am**

GG. wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:24 am It is far wider than Israel/Palestine though.

The hard left are anti-capitalist in a way that the moderate or Blairite left fundamentally are not. The anti-capitalism movement has strong strains of anti-semitism woven within it centered around the conspiracy theories of pan-global billionaire Jewish financiers such as the Rothschild family, for example.

There is definitely a fair amount of that. Left wing and right wing anti-semitic hatred comes from the same place.

Posted: **Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:37 am**

GG. wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:24 am It is far wider than Israel/Palestine though.

The hard left are anti-capitalist in a way that the moderate or Blairite left fundamentally are not. The anti-capitalism movement has strong strains of anti-semitism woven within it centered around the conspiracy theories of pan-global billionaire Jewish financiers such as the Rothschild family, for example.

Corbyn's post of approval of the anti-semitic mural in East London was a good example of the issue - even if Corbyn isn't an anti-semite himself, he is actively promoting a hard-left worldview that harbours significant anti-semitism within it. Israel is part of the whole but only one part. His actions may be explained as a 'mean to an end' to overthrow capitalism and install a socialist replacement but he is accepting of the anti-semites within that movement as a result. That's the nub of the issue.

For what its worth, the artist of the mural said that it was all about class: "My mural is about class and privilege. The banker group is made up of Jewish and white Anglos." but yet it expresses that through stereotypical racist/antisemitic images of men with big noses and beards/moustaches. Its a hollow and wholly unsatisfactory justification and you would imagine anyone with such finely hones 'anti-racist' sensibilities such as Corbyn to see it for what it really was.

Very well said.

I'm afraid anyone denying anti-semitism in Labour are either ignorant or in denial (on the assumption they're not actually anti-Semitic themselves).

OV9

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