Broccers wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:54 pm
Interested to see the Scots view - I guess you like Nic Sturgeon and want independent Scotland - which is great - I'm part Scottish, my Gparents were from Shetland.
I voted No in the indyRef, and was pretty vocal about the economic case for maintaining the union. If another referendum came around, I'd vote yes, and that's despite a deep loathing for the SNP.
I could give a detailed analysis that basically boils down to I'd rather hitch my wagon to train that's going somewhere, but really and honestly, the real reason is this: I'm ashamed.
I'm ashamed to be part of a nation that has allowed such ignorant, selfish and openly racist rhetoric to become mainstream and acceptable. I'm ashamed that, as a nation, we're all standing by while any pretense of a government standing for the good of its people is abandoned. I'm ashamed at the gullibility of an electorate going round and round in circles about Brexit, whipping themselves into an increasingly jingoistic fervour, while the current batch of incumbents get on with the business of selling the family silver, dismantling the market for silver, and then rewriting history to deny they ever was any silver, or indeed a family.
As I say, I can't stand the SNP - they're barely fit for parish council, let alone national government - but if that's the price to pay to avoid putting my name to this shitshow and all the moral bankruptcy that goes with it, then so be it.
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:14 am
by JLv3.0
Broccers wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:54 pm
Interested to see the Scots view - I guess you like Nic Sturgeon and want independent Scotland - which is great - I'm part Scottish, my Gparents were from Shetland.
I expect they won't tell you their view. They've said it before and don't want to repeat it. It wouldn't stand up to analysis anyway and you might disagree. Stop being so angry. Let's all try and be more positive! Now let's go and Brexit!
Broccers wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:54 pm
Interested to see the Scots view - I guess you like Nic Sturgeon and want independent Scotland - which is great - I'm part Scottish, my Gparents were from Shetland.
I expect they won't tell you their view. They've said it before and don't want to repeat it. It wouldn't stand up to analysis anyway and you might disagree. Stop being so angry. Let's all try and be more positive! Now let's go and Brexit!
Broccers wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:54 pm
Interested to see the Scots view - I guess you like Nic Sturgeon and want independent Scotland - which is great - I'm part Scottish, my Gparents were from Shetland.
I voted No in the indyRef, and was pretty vocal about the economic case for maintaining the union. If another referendum came around, I'd vote yes, and that's despite a deep loathing for the SNP.
I could give a detailed analysis that basically boils down to I'd rather hitch my wagon to train that's going somewhere, but really and honestly, the real reason is this: I'm ashamed.
I'm ashamed to be part of a nation that has allowed such ignorant, selfish and openly racist rhetoric to become mainstream and acceptable. I'm ashamed that, as a nation, we're all standing by while any pretense of a government standing for the good of its people is abandoned. I'm ashamed at the gullibility of an electorate going round and round in circles about Brexit, whipping themselves into an increasingly jingoistic fervour, while the current batch of incumbents get on with the business of selling the family silver, dismantling the market for silver, and then rewriting history to deny they ever was any silver, or indeed a family.
As I say, I can't stand the SNP - they're barely fit for parish council, let alone national government - but if that's the price to pay to avoid putting my name to this shitshow and all the moral bankruptcy that goes with it, then so be it.
So you're saying you'd rather not be part of a project with a dominant partner and whose politics don't reflect your own? You'd rather split off and go your own way despite the potential for disruption (finding or establishing a currency and central bank will be interesting...) and despite the fact that some of the people involved in the desire to split off are stupid and or repugnant?
Now why does this all seem strangely familiar!
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:56 am
by dinny_g
I shouldn't really because I thought Nef's post was so well written and honest but
Broccers wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:54 pm
Interested to see the Scots view - I guess you like Nic Sturgeon and want independent Scotland - which is great - I'm part Scottish, my Gparents were from Shetland.
I voted No in the indyRef, and was pretty vocal about the economic case for maintaining the union. If another referendum came around, I'd vote yes, and that's despite a deep loathing for the SNP.
I could give a detailed analysis that basically boils down to I'd rather hitch my wagon to train that's going somewhere, but really and honestly, the real reason is this: I'm ashamed.
I'm ashamed to be part of a nation that has allowed such ignorant, selfish and openly racist rhetoric to become mainstream and acceptable. I'm ashamed that, as a nation, we're all standing by while any pretense of a government standing for the good of its people is abandoned. I'm ashamed at the gullibility of an electorate going round and round in circles about Brexit, whipping themselves into an increasingly jingoistic fervour, while the current batch of incumbents get on with the business of selling the family silver, dismantling the market for silver, and then rewriting history to deny they ever was any silver, or indeed a family.
As I say, I can't stand the SNP - they're barely fit for parish council, let alone national government - but if that's the price to pay to avoid putting my name to this shitshow and all the moral bankruptcy that goes with it, then so be it.
So you're saying you'd rather not be part of a project with a dominant partner and whose politics don't reflect your own? You'd rather split off and go your own way despite the potential for disruption (finding or establishing a currency and central bank will be interesting...) and despite the fact that some of the people involved in the desire to split off are stupid and or repugnant?
Now why does this all seem strangely familiar!
What I'm saying is that if I've got to pick a side, I'd rather choose the one that is in the best economic and moral interests of my country, despite my personal politics. Pretty much the polar opposite of the thinking that led us into this clusterfuck.
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:08 pm
by NotoriousREV
It's very telling what someone's attitude to democracy is: if the people in charge don't agree with my politics, I'll walk away.
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:09 pm
by Nefarious
Or to put in another way - if I'm climbing a mountain, I'd rather be tethered to another climber, even if I have personal misgivings about his character. However, if he decides to throw himself off the cliff, the rope's getting cut.
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:29 pm
by GG.
That analogy doesn't work as you're then tethering yourself to another climber who is also cutting his rope.
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:34 pm
by GG.
NotoriousREV wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:08 pm
It's very telling what someone's attitude to democracy is: if the people in charge don't agree with my politics, I'll walk away.
This is the nub of the argument about why the EU is not "democratic" in the true sense of that word (i.e. not just the ability to vote). The reason why people feel this way is that the population of 27 member states is not the "demos" that people would feel it is acceptable to be bound by and cuts across the desire for self government. A certain level of supranational cooperation is a good thing but the EU wants to go far, far beyond that and has done since Maastricht.
Its really the same argument as the Scots Nats have around Westminster. Yes they get to vote in it so its not "taxation without representation" but they consider themselves Scottish and not British and as a result don't accept that Scotland should be bound by the decisions of Westminster.
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:59 pm
by NotoriousREV
But where do you stop this reductio ad absurdum? My Parish council don’t represent me...
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:03 pm
by ZedLeg
Also how much of the ill will felt towards the EU is due to things it's done and how much is due to lies and exaggerations from nationalist tub-thumpers?
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:31 pm
by Broccers
Some good points.
Interesting that no-one is looking at the EU going forwards. Bit of a failure really. How is it performing economically?
Broccers wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:54 pm
Interested to see the Scots view - I guess you like Nic Sturgeon and want independent Scotland - which is great - I'm part Scottish, my Gparents were from Shetland.
I voted No in the indyRef, and was pretty vocal about the economic case for maintaining the union. If another referendum came around, I'd vote yes, and that's despite a deep loathing for the SNP.
I could give a detailed analysis that basically boils down to I'd rather hitch my wagon to train that's going somewhere, but really and honestly, the real reason is this: I'm ashamed.
I'm ashamed to be part of a nation that has allowed such ignorant, selfish and openly racist rhetoric to become mainstream and acceptable. I'm ashamed that, as a nation, we're all standing by while any pretense of a government standing for the good of its people is abandoned. I'm ashamed at the gullibility of an electorate going round and round in circles about Brexit, whipping themselves into an increasingly jingoistic fervour, while the current batch of incumbents get on with the business of selling the family silver, dismantling the market for silver, and then rewriting history to deny they ever was any silver, or indeed a family.
As I say, I can't stand the SNP - they're barely fit for parish council, let alone national government - but if that's the price to pay to avoid putting my name to this shitshow and all the moral bankruptcy that goes with it, then so be it.
I agree with every single point of that and a lot of people I know feel exactly the same now.
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:52 pm
by Swervin_Mervin
Nefarious wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:51 am
I'm ashamed to be part of a nation that has allowed such ignorant, selfish and openly racist rhetoric to become mainstream and acceptable.
Do you really believe that's the case? The media likes to whip up a storm, hence the racist angle for people that voted Brexit and the moaning leftie for those that voted for Remain. The pillory of Gina Miller a prime case in point. Hence why you also see the likes of Mark Francois getting airtime and all the other loonies. Let;'s create these arch villains and peddle it as much as possible.
You're just buying into their story if you believe that closely represents reality. Sure, there's a few nutters about, and they might feel this has given them the legitimacy to air their views, but I like to think that there's a majority of people that are actually fairly normal and moderate. They're fairly dull though aren't they?
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:02 pm
by ZedLeg
A man who has repeatedly said blatantly racist things has just become prime minister while telling lies about the EU to push his agenda.
Nef is pretty spot on.
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:18 pm
by GG.
Yep and pretty much all of those comments (and you can argue about whether satire is racist on account of using racist words) are used liberally out of context by politicians and the media to whip up further controversy, as Swerve has noted. The Picannines and Watermelon Smiles comments were a send up of neo colonial attitudes and the burka letterboxes article was actually arguing against banning the burka as other European countries have done as it would be backward and intolerant.
I don't disagree that they're insensitive, stupid or inappropriate things for a senior politician to say but to mark Boris down as a little Englander racist shows a lack of understanding of who he is, his policies on immigration and general political viewpoint, etc. He's much more or a liberal conservative than Theresa May, for example.
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:25 pm
by ZedLeg
I didn't say little Englander I just said racist.
He's an unprincipled populist who'll say anything to get into a position of power, that's who he is.
