Harry’s Garage

[IanF]

A very insightful video this week

[GG.]

Looking forward to this one. Surprised if he's gone with a sport over a FFRR but maybe the thumbnail is misleading and that's just one he reviewed earlier... (don't spoil it!)

[Jobbo]

Not a spoiler because I haven’t watched it - but he has said in some previous videos that the new RR is more expensive than he’s comfortable with. So he might have gone for the Sport. I think this generation there is a lot more space between them so it would be the wrong move RR or Defender, ignore the Disco and Sport which are for school runs.

[integrale_evo]

I’m pretty sure he will have tested them for long enough to make sure they meet his needs

[GG.]

It is a very interesting video and raises a lot of extremely perceptive points...

Personally, I'm actually really regretting getting a Range Rover now... mainly because having shelled out for another 12 months insurance, I've felt compelled to start looking at Belgravia Green L460s in Autobiography trim because, you know, they're more secure and presumably cheaper to insure (current value - £106,000). Clearly its a disease. I should have taken up Class A drugs instead - it would have been cheaper

[Simon]

Fascinating video. Very honest perspective on EVs and hybrids alike. And I'm glad there is someone out there properly documenting how fast charging, charging to 100% etc etc affects battery health. The fact is that anyone who's been around batteries for a while has known this. It's why I don't charge my phone up quickly.

Can we just stop this "it'll charge to 80% in 30 minutes, you'll be stopping for a piss anyway" chat. Because that's bad. End of. EVe current battery tech will never be as convenient as ICE unless you only ever drive locally and charge at home overnight.

[Mito Man]

I've glossed through the video, don't really wish to listen to 28 minutes of talk about how shit EVs are but I do agree with Harry. Most of them are purchased due to tax reasons or by Londoners because they're so much cheaper to park and drive into the city vs an ICE car that they pay for themselves - you make back the monthly repayment within a month on everything apart from the most expensive EVs. I think lithium batteries are a ticking time bomb, and manufacturers were always aware of it but stuck with the "oh in 10 years time when it does need a new battery it will only cost £2000." 10 years passed and they cost even more now so they're scrapping otherwise good cars.
If it weren't for all the incentives I wonder how big the true market would be.


The new Range Rover sport seems to be a really decent car from everything I've read about it. Whilst the previous ones were quite inferior to the proper Range Rover this doesn't seem to be that way.

[Simon]

I've glossed through the video, don't really wish to listen to 28 minutes of talk about how shit EVs are <snip>

It's really not that Mito. Don't forget, Harry ran an EV and a PHEV and nearly bought another PHEV. He likes EVs. This video is just about why it's not right for him right now and why the EV industry is in a rut with a glut of depreciating cars.

[nuttinnew]

^That; when he tested the new FFRR, he went into it as a serial FFRR user looking to replace like with like, yet...
I don't know exactly when it was filmed but he makes a point very relevant to recent events in Wales.
A nose through the comments is good for a chuckle, so much angry !

[mik]

Enjoyed that, and uncle Harry makes some excellent points.

His assertion that EV’s need to self-assess and display battery health is absolutely fair, although it’s ignoring the fact that the only measure we have with ICE cars is mileage; which makes fuck all differentiation between a car that is warmed up carefully before it’s stretched, and another that is ragged from cold.

[Rich B]

I've glossed through the video, don't really wish to listen to 28 minutes of talk about how shit EVs are but I do agree with Harry. Most of them are purchased due to tax reasons or by Londoners because they're so much cheaper to park and drive into the city vs an ICE car that they pay for themselves - you make back the monthly repayment within a month on everything apart from the most expensive EVs. I think lithium batteries are a ticking time bomb, and manufacturers were always aware of it but stuck with the "oh in 10 years time when it does need a new battery it will only cost £2000." 10 years passed and they cost even more now so they're scrapping otherwise good cars.
If it weren't for all the incentives I wonder how big the true market would be.

Agree. The 2nd hand market treats EVs the same way they treat 10 year old super saloons - just too much of a risk if something goes wrong.

Who's going to buy a 10 year old Leaf or some other bland box that has may have a hugely diminished range and a potential astronomic bill for new batteries if the previous owners dared to actually use 100% of the battery?

[Jobbo]

The new Range Rover sport seems to be a really decent car from everything I've read about it. Whilst the previous ones were quite inferior to the proper Range Rover this doesn't seem to be that way.

The last generation Sport was close to the RR, being based on the same aluminium architecture. This time the reviews I’ve seen have been less effusive, and frankly it looks pretty ugly and unfinished to me - the detailing is poor.

Harry mentioned the good fuel economy in his Defender 130 video recently so it makes sense on paper but I would rather have a previous shape Sport, personally. Not possible if you feel you have to lease a new car every 3 years. Harry’s throwaway £20k down comment is a bit rich too; that’s £600 a month on top of the monthlies.

[Edit]: I've had a quick look at the Land Rover website which allows you to see the finance deals. It's a PCP not a lease as far as I could tell from Harry's video. The reason the Sport is cheaper is threefold:
1. The car is cheaper; £86k vs £116k. Because nobody goes for the base model RR do they
2. The finance rate is cheaper: 5.9% vs 9.9%
3. You get a finance deposit contribution on the Sport of £5k.
There's no real difference in the deal between diesel and PHEV versions other than the PHEV being a higher priced, faster model in the range.

[V8Granite]

Enjoyed that, and uncle Harry makes some excellent points.

His assertion that EV’s need to self-assess and display battery health is absolutely fair, although it’s ignoring the fact that the only measure we have with ICE cars is mileage; which makes fuck all differentiation between a car that is warmed up carefully before it’s stretched, and another that is ragged from cold.

I’d bet that as a percentage the average 10 year old petrol ICE car has a power and efficiency closer to standard than an EV where the battery and motor need to be seen as one unit.

The average current direct injection petrol car, I’m not so sure.

Dave!

[GG.]

The new Range Rover sport seems to be a really decent car from everything I've read about it. Whilst the previous ones were quite inferior to the proper Range Rover this doesn't seem to be that way.

The last generation Sport was close to the RR, being based on the same aluminium architecture. This time the reviews I’ve seen have been less effusive, and frankly it looks pretty ugly and unfinished to me - the detailing is poor.

Yes I completely agree with you. Styling wise, if I'm totally honest the facelift L494 was a sharper looking thing than the L405. I would have been tempted other than the (IMO) negative image and the more spacious interior on the FFRR. In the latest versions by contrast, the FFRR is much better looking than the Sport... which looks like Jimmy Hill from the front and a bland boxy design from the back.

Interestingly I've seen loads of L460s but very few of the new Sport (other than the one parked at the end of our road (with a stupid non dateless "02" reg number plate that looks like its trying to spell a word but isnt, natch)) though perhaps that is because they were released/started delivery later.

[GG.]

Enjoyed that, and uncle Harry makes some excellent points.

His assertion that EV’s need to self-assess and display battery health is absolutely fair, although it’s ignoring the fact that the only measure we have with ICE cars is mileage; which makes fuck all differentiation between a car that is warmed up carefully before it’s stretched, and another that is ragged from cold.

I’d bet that as a percentage the average 10 year old petrol ICE car has a power and efficiency closer to standard than an EV where the battery and motor need to be seen as one unit.

The average current direct injection petrol car, I’m not so sure.

Dave!

Even when coked up though I don't think DFI engines were losing more than 20% of their max power were they? And relatively cheap to de-coke compared to replacing a battery. Some of those examples Harry mentioned from the Norwegian guy's video were showing a near 50% drop!

[Jobbo]

I've started to see the new Sport around a bit now. They haven't grown on me. One of the first I saw was broken down which I'm sure has tainted my view even further

[MikeHunt]

There are quire a few of the new model Sports around here and they look best in black as it hides some of the detail, especially the rear as it looks like something is missing. Im not a huge fan of the defender, the 90 is too short and the 110 too long, maybe they can create a 100 as it would be just right.

The Velar is the pick of the bunch imho, does someone on here have a v8 sv?

[Ascender]

Interesting vid.

I think he mentioned a couple of week's ago that the CDE of the RR Sport made a big difference to the mpg figures compared with some of the other similar cars he'd been driving.

Can't believe the monthlies are £500 or so cheaper for a Sport over a RR though.

I don't mind that red/orange colour of his. Makes a change from black.

[scotta]

Interesting vid.

I think he mentioned a couple of week's ago that the CDE of the RR Sport made a big difference to the mpg figures compared with some of the other similar cars he'd been driving.

Can't believe the monthlies are £500 or so cheaper for a Sport over a RR though.

I don't mind that red/orange colour of his. Makes a change from black.

Yeah that was his defender LWB video that he drove to the alps. Same drivetrain as his RR sport but significantly less efficient.

[Barry]

He cheated on his chosen deal though, the dep was £25k not £20k he used on the pricey examples. Still cheaper mind.

Just listened to it all and overall agree with most of his points, altho he did pick on older batteries/management for the worst degradation examples, which is a tad unfair, altho it does showcase why 2nd hand buyers are very wary to get involved. You need to be pretty savvy with how EVs work if you want to get into buying one IMO.

In my case, after two EV leases I'm handing it back next week purely because the new lease deals are 50% more expensive than my deal, like for like. I'll drag the poor old EP3 into regular service while I wait to see how the market reacts to all this. I'm hopeful they'll panic and some better deals with surface in the next month or so.