The House Projects Thread

[Mito Man]

Yeah I didn’t wanna post it as it came across badly but my first thought was the judge probably bottled it and didn’t want to be that guy who made a family homeless.

[Jobbo]

It feels like the judge lost his nerve when he realised he was going to have to make a possession order.

That is exactly what I’d always have in mind with this - they don’t just become homeless, they lose all of the value in their property. They may have brought it on themselves but by failing to engage with the process and bringing up endless nonsense, the courts do need to consider it carefully in case they randomly come up with a valid argument.

[DeskJockey]

That's very frustrating.

[Gavster]

One thing that’s quite funny out of today, is there’s a fair chance we get HHJ Saggerson as the circuit judge. He heard the earlier appeal to the original devclaration and during that hearing called my neighbours “members of the awkward squad”

[IanF]

It feels like the judge lost his nerve when he realised he was going to have to make a possession order.

That is exactly what I’d always have in mind with this - they don’t just become homeless, they lose all of the value in their property. They may have brought it on themselves but by failing to engage with the process and bringing up endless nonsense, the courts do need to consider it carefully in case they randomly come up with a valid argument.

Very equitable of you, and entirely proper, but I feel Gav is getting forgotten here in the court process.. he’s having or stump up considerable time, money and stress when it appears they other party has had plenty of opportunities to resolve/mitigate the case. I’d say, if you don’t want to judge a case, don’t be a Judge

[Jobbo]

I’m not trying to take sides Ian - my view is the reality of this type of court application. The courts are always very reluctant to take away someone’s property.

Gav is unusual in that he is not just the landlord, he is also the neighbour who has had to live with this behaviour for years. Most neighbours don’t have the ultimate remedy of taking away the ownership rights of the delinquents next door. Gav has managed to get himself into a fortunate position - the risk is that even when he wins, he won’t actually win anything more than the amount he has spent in legal fees due to the behaviour of these people.

[IanF]

I’m not trying to take sides Ian - my view is the reality of this type of court application. The courts are always very reluctant to take away someone’s property.

Gav is unusual in that he is not just the landlord, he is also the neighbour who has had to live with this behaviour for years. Most neighbours don’t have the ultimate remedy of taking away the ownership rights of the delinquents next door. Gav has managed to get himself into a fortunate position - the risk is that even when he wins, he won’t actually win anything more than the amount he has spent in legal fees due to the behaviour of these people.

Yeah, I’m not suggesting you are, just thinking the judge needs to live up to his job description. As for the rest, why should that matter, one party hasn’t upheld their side of the contract and, after several attempts to remedy, they’ve reached a court hearing; why is that not the right time for the Judge to “judge” and Gav to stop paying legal bills?
Why should Gav’s continue to pay his legal fees and leave nothing left for his disruption!?

Solicitors get rich, Judges pass the buck, and normal people (Gav) lose out?..

[IanF]

Also, to make it clear, I’m not suggesting Jobbo gives me a simple effective answer to a complex case (which he may be able to!); I’m saying I feel that this is now unfair towards Gav; I think the balance should be equal, and Judges shouldn’t shirk their responsibility.

[IanF]

/endofrant

[Gavster]

I totally undersatnd where you're coming from @IanF, the case in theory is very simple "did you allow access to a surveyor?". However, it might help to add some more context to understand the judge's decision, a frustrating choice, which nonetheless does have some grounds when it comes to making a decision that has such a major impact on the defendant.

My neighbours (Mr & Mrs C) are litigants in person, they have (almost) completely represented themselves at all stages. Mrs C remains silent and Mr C has done a rather impressive amount of reading about property law and legal procedures over the last few years. His defence contains lengthy references to case law, lots of barrack-room legalese and makes all kinds of claims, including that the right to forfeiture has been waived for many reasons. Alongside that are a whole tranche of accusations that I've undertaken a campaign of harassment and intimidation that includes blocking their drains, banging on their windows and loads of other stuff.

First off, the judge has to be directed through those 84 pages to the pertinent sections that might form a credible defence, which takes a lot of court time. The harassment accusations are not relevant, so can be quickly dismissed. Then, in another part he'll say he's filing an acquisition claim on me in the first tier tribunal for breaches of the lease, under section 27 of the 1987 act. That sounds scary, but he cannot do that, as he needs more than 50% of the leaseholders to file that claim, which means he would need me (as leaseholder) to file that claim alongside him, against myself (as freeholder)

A judge can dispatch those kinds of things fairly quickly, however each one still takes more court time to deal with. We were scheduled for 30 minutes and were there for at least 90 minutes. However when he's bringing up multiple reasons for waiver that can only be dismissed by clarifying the actions and chain of events over the last five years, it takes a lot more time. Or when he's quoting case law or claiming the s.146 notice was incorrect, the judge has to go through the documents line by line and refer back to earlier judgements to ensure it's correct. Sometimes the judge can dismiss based on the existence of previous determinations, however it's still time-consuming. There are a few reasons why a court could tell me to sod off, if my solicitor had made any errors over the last five years, so all of these claims need to be considered.

By the time we were 90 minutes in, he was still trawling through the defence despite having run well over time, and clearly felt that to make such a significant order wasn't fair. Another judge might have cut through it all. The judge wasn't unreasonable, he just shrunk away from making a declaration in the face of some uncertainty.

[Beany]

Dumb question - have you checked for the phrase "OpenAI" in his documents?

I'm only half joking...you might not find that phrase itself, but it might be worth ask your solicitor to check out the case law references - a dead giveaway for AI use in legal work is that it just flat out invents previous judgements etc but unless someone looks them up, they can get taken at face value.

https://www.theregister.com/2023/06/22/ ... ake_cases/

[Gavster]

OpenAI likely has nothing to do with it, because the content and style of his writing has been consistent since he first started sending me threatening letters, all the way back in 2018. He often gets the general principle or case law correct, e.g. quotes he the relevant documents, but he gets the application of it wrong, or misses a detail which would destroy his argument (like the acquisition order, he has quoted it many times and is relevant, but it requires "more than 50% of leaseholders", and he alone is precisely 50%, not more than 50%, therefore it's meaningless.

[Beany]

Ah well, sounds like he's just one of those people with far, far too much time on his hands, and a heroically inflated view of his own legal skills.

[Ascender]

Floors are being sanded today and we're trapped upstairs by sheets of plastic - it looks like house in ET when the government swoops down. Of course poor planning and preparation is to blame.

Child #2 is wondering if she could get food delivered and they'd be happy to try throwing it up through an open window. The ladders we have for the loft aren't long enough to get down to the ground unfortunately so the fridge is also out of reach.

I think selling a house is worse than selling a car and we've not even made it to the listing point.

[jamcg]

Floors are being sanded today and we're trapped upstairs by sheets of plastic - it looks like house in ET when the government swoops down. Of course poor planning and preparation is to blame.

Child #2 is wondering if she could get food delivered and they'd be happy to try throwing it up through an open window. The ladders we have for the loft aren't long enough to get down to the ground unfortunately so the fridge is also out of reach.

I think selling a house is worse than selling a car and we've not even made it to the listing point.

Bit of rope and a bag for life and it’ll be reet

@gavster any further forward with new hearing dates?

[drcarlos]

FInally got the last part of the ours completed last week, our ensuite. All looks nice and the wife is very happy with it all. I have a few jobs to do to tidy some loose ends up.
Now onto the garden and the 15k quote to get the new patios, paths, fencing, gates and lawn that we need to fix everything that was trashed as part of the build.

[DeskJockey]

Booked a builder last week to repair the render on the side of the house, he told me late June which is fine with us. He just called asking if they can start on Wednesday.

So, looks like it will get done rather more quickly.

[dinny_g]

I gave my garden shed a little TLC over the weekend with a new felt roof and new shelving.

It's still far too small for my needs but at least it's dry. When clearing it out. I saw the extend of the leaking - I've lost a Dremel set, a Halfords ratchet set and a crate full of painting and decorating stuff...

[Gavster]

Floors are being sanded today and we're trapped upstairs by sheets of plastic - it looks like house in ET when the government swoops down. Of course poor planning and preparation is to blame.

Child #2 is wondering if she could get food delivered and they'd be happy to try throwing it up through an open window. The ladders we have for the loft aren't long enough to get down to the ground unfortunately so the fridge is also out of reach.

I think selling a house is worse than selling a car and we've not even made it to the listing point.

Bit of rope and a bag for life and it’ll be reet

@gavster any further forward with new hearing dates?

My first flat was a large Victorian ground floor conversion with a massive triple sash bay window at the front. At the front of the house was a wide driveway and I had a huge sofa inside the bay. On hungover Sundays I’d order a pizza and when the driver arrived I’d wave to get his attention and he’d pass the pizza through the window, so I didn’t even meed to leave the sofa

And nope, nothing from the courts. Was advised it could be September realistically

[DeskJockey]

Work started today. Scaffold went up this morning, and early afternoon the builder showed up, starting to mark out what needs cutting out.



He's started on the cutting. So far he's not found anything horrendous, fingers crossed that continues.