OV9

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2025 11:45 am**

Musings from a webinar about cyber security (my mind wandered slightly): topic was about enabling users to do the right thing, and not put blockers in their way for the sake of security, however well-intentioned.

That got me thinking... with the increasing level of complexity in modern cars, and our collective frequent moans about the clueless and witless drivers that seem not to understand which button(s)/features turn on their lights, indicators, wipers, fogs, what is or isn't on or off by default or automatically, etc. Should new cars come with a mandatory training session showing the operators how to use them correctly and safely?

It is default in many other areas of life (as perhaps the most extreme example look at the amount of training commercial pilots require to switch from one type of plane to another), so why not when it comes to cars?

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2025 12:57 pm**

I almost clicked "yes" as I do think people should be taken through all the controls when they buy a new car, but since that doesn't really flow down through second-hand sales, I then decided to click "no".

People should want to know were everything is, but..... how many are actually that interested?

Modern cars be complex and you can get very distracted trying to work out where things are. I've driven off in 2 hire cars recently (both LHD) and then found myself overly distracted trying to switch from speed-limiter to cruise control at speed (although arguably I couldn't really have done that before I set off).

Did have a very scary moment in a Tesla Model3 a couple of years back - it hadn't been raining for about an hour, but there was a huge puddle on the other side of the dual-carrigeway that caused a passing HGV to absolutely drench me - could barely see and I had no idea that the primary wiper control is on the main touchscreen (which is simply ludicrous - although I later learned that pressing the stalk end elicits a single wipe. This is definitely something I should have familiarised myself with before driving

).

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2025 1:13 pm**

I agree about the lack of flow down, although buying used from a main dealer could still include it, however, I think it would still improve things.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2025 1:22 pm**

Wrong question being asked IMO. We’re already trained for difference vehicle types and it wouldn’t be practical to have training for individual cars when there’s thousands of models. So the question would then be should critical car features have mandated placement and a set design which can’t be strayed from much? That way you don’t have cars with fog lights and wipers hidden in sub menus, haptic indicators, gear selectors on the roof etc

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2025 2:29 pm**

Mito Man wrote: Mon Jul 14, 2025 1:22 pm Wrong question being asked IMO. We’re already trained for difference vehicle types and it wouldn’t be practical to have training for individual cars when there’s thousands of models. So the question would then be should critical car features have mandated placement and a set design which can’t be strayed from much? That way you don’t have cars with fog lights and wipers hidden in sub menus, haptic indicators, gear selectors on the roof etc

That's a sensible suggestion, and one I'd back. Will get no traction from industry, and I suspect the UK isn't big enough of a market to push it through. But, it would be far better.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2025 3:02 pm**

Haven't they - the eu? - done that with hazard light and sos button positioning (centre of dash, on roof by rear view mirror)?

Driver's manuals are going to the touch screens so how about a familiarisation test or demo on there?

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2025 7:26 pm**

No, we aren’t children and don’t need anymore nannying from Health and Safety losers with zero friends and bad breath.

Dave!

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2025 7:44 pm**

nuttinnew wrote: Mon Jul 14, 2025 3:02 pm Haven't they - the eu? - done that with hazard light and sos button positioning (centre of dash, on roof by rear view mirror)?

Right next to the sunroof button… which is helpful

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2025 8:07 pm**

V8Granite wrote: Mon Jul 14, 2025 7:26 pm No, we aren’t children and don’t need anymore nannying from Health and Safety losers with zero friends and bad breath.

Dave!

So when you're out commissioning new generators there's no training for the operations teams that will run them?

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2025 10:46 pm**

That’s comparing building a car and doing all the maintenance to driving a car.

Operators get a few minutes lesson on the starting sequence and that’s it. The rest is specific maintenance which the operators generally never do anyway.

What the world needs is not more regulation.

Dave!

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2025 11:20 pm**

Mito Man wrote: Mon Jul 14, 2025 1:22 pm Wrong question being asked IMO. We’re already trained for difference vehicle types and it wouldn’t be practical to have training for individual cars when there’s thousands of models. So the question would then be should critical car features have mandated placement and a set design which can’t be strayed from much? That way you don’t have cars with fog lights and wipers hidden in sub menus, haptic indicators, gear selectors on the roof etc

This.

I'm trying to think what was the last "useful" control innovation for cars.

Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2025 7:04 am**

The future in Deskjockeys world….

i just bought my Elise and i’m now waiting 6 weeks for my government employed Car Understanding National Trainer appointment so i can take it home.

The day of the appointment happens and a 19 year old with 4 weeks training at the Stelantis Academy turns up and doesn’t recognise the weird lever between the seats and spends 40 minutes looking for the traction control switch. After an hour the car is declared undrivable and he leaves.

Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2025 7:39 am**

Who said they were to be employed by government (and why is that made out to be bad)?

I'm sure you're the very pinnacle of human skill, but a lot of other people can't climb all the way to the top of your pedestal, so perhaps for all our sakes they could get some training?

And for @V8Granite: we need more regulation and control. I think it has been conclusively proven that companies can't be trusted to self-regulate or do "the right thing" in a wider societal context.

Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2025 8:27 am**

I’m not entirely sure even more regulation is needed.

An example of what my day was in Australia, where the H+S folk are seen as gods. My comments in brackets are what I think of each stage. This is more and more because people think they know more than those doing the job and any nuance they don’t understand is ignored.

We have a charge cooler leak.
We determine it needs to be removed.
The H+S folk put up a drop zone, so no-one can walk underneath the cooler.
(Not needed yet, cooler won’t be out for many hours, makes the part of the job on the ground needlessly complicated)
We then have to do a risk assessment.
(No problem, we know the risks and have highlighted them)
They argue we need more risk analysis for a situation that is physically impossible to happen.
(We argue it can’t happen and we are now going to struggle to do the job safely)
They win the argument, they get their name on the form to show how wonderful they are.
(Keeps the H+S boss happy)
We need a lifting plan on the building that this lift has never been in before. Only vertical lifts allowed.
(We spend 2 days arguing that it is literally impossible to do a true vertical lift, we agree to quadruple up the lifting gear)
They fit scaffolding to give us a safe working platform.
(Scaffolding is in the way of the cooler coming out)
You need fall arresters, full body harness with a tether, as you may fall through a gap you couldn’t squeeze me through with all the butter in the world.
(Just don’t wear it)
Lift happens and cooler is out.
(They’ve decided they don’t like the 10mm plate brackets we support the cooler on, despite test plates and drawing numbers)

We finish the job on nightshift.

7 days for a 1.5 day job maximum.

Health and Safety people get a warm fuzzy feeling as less accidents are recorded (because everyone is terrified of dealing with them) and safety stuff is put in place as a nod to the H+S folk to keep them happy. The No Blame Culture is an utter lie and we all do what we can to avoid them.

The North Sea and oil and gas are H+S conscious, have the means and knowledge to put this in place sensibly. We all work together and it’s lovely.

I once had a guy make a point of handing me a bucket of sand in the morning meeting, explaining how a fuel leak could be a fire hazard. The pumps were bunded and pump 1400 litres a minute. This point was lost on him.

I may be on a soapbox as an angry old man shouting at clouds but there should be much more accountability, certainly not more regulation, as it will spread everywhere.

See BT, screwing in multiple tethers into your wall to fit a bloody wire.

Dave!

(I’ve even annoyed myself

)

Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2025 8:57 am**

DeskJockey wrote: Tue Jul 15, 2025 7:39 am Who said they were to be employed by government (and why is that made out to be bad)?

I'm sure you're the very pinnacle of human skill, but a lot of other people can't climb all the way to the top of your pedestal, so perhaps for all our sakes they could get some training?

The Car Understanding National Trainer could be a private agency if it helps. Maybe they could be the British Institute Gaining Car Understanding National Trainer Scheme?

I look forward to my £99 charge for one of these spotty oiks to come and show me how to use the recirc button on my air conditioning!

Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2025 9:36 am**

V8Granite wrote: Tue Jul 15, 2025 8:27 am I’m not entirely sure even more regulation is needed.

An example of what my day was in Australia, where the H+S folk are seen as gods. My comments in brackets are what I think of each stage. This is more and more because people think they know more than those doing the job and any nuance they don’t understand is ignored.

We have a charge cooler leak.
We determine it needs to be removed.
The H+S folk put up a drop zone, so no-one can walk underneath the cooler.
(Not needed yet, cooler won’t be out for many hours, makes the part of the job on the ground needlessly complicated)
We then have to do a risk assessment.
(No problem, we know the risks and have highlighted them)
They argue we need more risk analysis for a situation that is physically impossible to happen.
(We argue it can’t happen and we are now going to struggle to do the job safely)
They win the argument, they get their name on the form to show how wonderful they are.
(Keeps the H+S boss happy)
We need a lifting plan on the building that this lift has never been in before. Only vertical lifts allowed.
(We spend 2 days arguing that it is literally impossible to do a true vertical lift, we agree to quadruple up the lifting gear)
They fit scaffolding to give us a safe working platform.
(Scaffolding is in the way of the cooler coming out)
You need fall arresters, full body harness with a tether, as you may fall through a gap you couldn’t squeeze me through with all the butter in the world.
(Just don’t wear it)
Lift happens and cooler is out.
(They’ve decided they don’t like the 10mm plate brackets we support the cooler on, despite test plates and drawing numbers)

We finish the job on nightshift.

7 days for a 1.5 day job maximum.

Health and Safety people get a warm fuzzy feeling as less accidents are recorded (because everyone is terrified of dealing with them) and safety stuff is put in place as a nod to the H+S folk to keep them happy. The No Blame Culture is an utter lie and we all do what we can to avoid them.

The North Sea and oil and gas are H+S conscious, have the means and knowledge to put this in place sensibly. We all work together and it’s lovely.

I once had a guy make a point of handing me a bucket of sand in the morning meeting, explaining how a fuel leak could be a fire hazard. The pumps were bunded and pump 1400 litres a minute. This point was lost on him.

I may be on a soapbox as an angry old man shouting at clouds but there should be much more accountability, certainly not more regulation, as it will spread everywhere.

See BT, screwing in multiple tethers into your wall to fit a bloody wire.

Dave!

(I’ve even annoyed myself )

You're right there is a balance to strike. Can't comment on your experience in Oz, but did you try to offer them a beer first?

My problem with weak/lacking regulation is that it tends to leave the weakest side exposed to the whims of the stronger. As Mito suggested regulation could mandate the constant placement and function of certain core features to ensure that the basic operation was always the same.

Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2025 9:38 am**

Rich B wrote: Tue Jul 15, 2025 8:57 am
DeskJockey wrote: Tue Jul 15, 2025 7:39 am Who said they were to be employed by government (and why is that made out to be bad)?

I'm sure you're the very pinnacle of human skill, but a lot of other people can't climb all the way to the top of your pedestal, so perhaps for all our sakes they could get some training?

The Car Understanding National Trainer could be a private agency if it helps. Maybe they could be the British Institute Gaining Car Understanding National Trainer Scheme?

I look forward to my £99 charge for one of these spotty oiks to come and show me how to use the recirc button on my air conditioning!

You're in fine form today. As a token of appreciation we'll give you an introductory discount, you can get the spottiest oik on the lot to demo the radio in your car for only £199 + tip and VAT.

Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2025 10:55 am**

DeskJockey wrote: Tue Jul 15, 2025 9:36 am
V8Granite wrote: Tue Jul 15, 2025 8:27 am I’m not entirely sure even more regulation is needed.

An example of what my day was in Australia, where the H+S folk are seen as gods. My comments in brackets are what I think of each stage. This is more and more because people think they know more than those doing the job and any nuance they don’t understand is ignored.

We have a charge cooler leak.
We determine it needs to be removed.
The H+S folk put up a drop zone, so no-one can walk underneath the cooler.
(Not needed yet, cooler won’t be out for many hours, makes the part of the job on the ground needlessly complicated)
We then have to do a risk assessment.
(No problem, we know the risks and have highlighted them)
They argue we need more risk analysis for a situation that is physically impossible to happen.
(We argue it can’t happen and we are now going to struggle to do the job safely)
They win the argument, they get their name on the form to show how wonderful they are.
(Keeps the H+S boss happy)
We need a lifting plan on the building that this lift has never been in before. Only vertical lifts allowed.
(We spend 2 days arguing that it is literally impossible to do a true vertical lift, we agree to quadruple up the lifting gear)
They fit scaffolding to give us a safe working platform.
(Scaffolding is in the way of the cooler coming out)
You need fall arresters, full body harness with a tether, as you may fall through a gap you couldn’t squeeze me through with all the butter in the world.
(Just don’t wear it)
Lift happens and cooler is out.
(They’ve decided they don’t like the 10mm plate brackets we support the cooler on, despite test plates and drawing numbers)

We finish the job on nightshift.

7 days for a 1.5 day job maximum.

Health and Safety people get a warm fuzzy feeling as less accidents are recorded (because everyone is terrified of dealing with them) and safety stuff is put in place as a nod to the H+S folk to keep them happy. The No Blame Culture is an utter lie and we all do what we can to avoid them.

The North Sea and oil and gas are H+S conscious, have the means and knowledge to put this in place sensibly. We all work together and it’s lovely.

I once had a guy make a point of handing me a bucket of sand in the morning meeting, explaining how a fuel leak could be a fire hazard. The pumps were bunded and pump 1400 litres a minute. This point was lost on him.

I may be on a soapbox as an angry old man shouting at clouds but there should be much more accountability, certainly not more regulation, as it will spread everywhere.

See BT, screwing in multiple tethers into your wall to fit a bloody wire.

Dave!

(I’ve even annoyed myself )
You're right there is a balance to strike. Can't comment on your experience in Oz, but did you try to offer them a beer first?

My problem with weak/lacking regulation is that it tends to leave the weakest side exposed to the whims of the stronger. As Mito suggested regulation could mandate the constant placement and function of certain core features to ensure that the basic operation was always the same.

Can you give a current example? I only work in mechanicals, oil and gas and it’s heavily weighted towards being overly regulated for our day to day stuff.

I’ll wear hi viz but other than that, want to be left alone as an adult.

(If I am infact an adult)

Dave!

Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2025 11:25 am**

@V8Granite in my area look no further than AI. Generally technology outpaces regulation, and we all end up paying the price. There are plenty of ideas and frameworks for how to govern AI, but precious little actual regulation that can curb/control what companies are doing.

There's an interesting proposal from Denmark that each of us should own the copyright of our likeness to restrict what can be done without our permission. It is early stages, and will be a challenge to implement, but it could be the beginning of the end of the data free-for-all that certain companies rely on to monetise that which isn't theirs. You can also look at the ongoing lawsuits and challenges from "traditional" media organisations who find their content (ab)used without permission or compensation.

Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2025 12:40 pm**

In my industry regulation is brilliant for large companies and sole traders. (Ignoring gas regs- they are essential but more on that later)

Sole traders fly under the radar and largely can ignore most of the health and safety regulations

Large companies (British Gas etc) love a regulation. It works to tick boxes and helps remove competition from the marketplace

Smaller firms struggle. They can’t necessarily afford to loose staff to training courses that they can’t afford to pay for

Think about your local plumbers. How many sole traders are there? How many big companies employing 40/50 people are there? Now think how many companies, employing 5-10 people are there? Bet there’s not many of them about

As for gas regulations. Written in legal language and some are written to be as ambiguous as possible that it might as well not be there. And someone gets paid a stupid amount of money to think up some of the biggest pieces of bullshit you’ve ever read, written in a way that so many gas fitters misinterpret it and then the arguments start…….

OV9

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