OV9

Regardless of whether any change is likely/unlikely/impossible, lets have a pole!

It's nothing to do with charitable status anymore. It would just end the exemption for tax on primary and secondary education.

Not all private schools are for rich toff's. My son goes to a private school who specialise in ASN funded through the local authority.

If we put VAT on education we should be fair about it and put VAT on educational materials too, like books, toys & what the hell, children’s clothes too.

They way I look at it is that in most instances private education is a luxury that people choose, in that context it absolutely should be applicable for VAT.

Scott’s case is valid though, which is where something like a tax credit or even rolling special schools into the state system may be an option.

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 1:12 pm They way I look at it is that in most instances private education is a luxury that people choose, in that context it absolutely should be applicable for VAT.

Scott’s case is valid though, which is where something like a tax credit or even rolling special schools into the state system may be an option.

Which is the Value Added bit then for VAT to apply?

And should it be added to all forms of education?

In principle there should only be one educational system (no more selective system post code lottery), one national curriculum, one managing authority, and no private schools directly funded by parents. In my view.

Specialist private (non-profit?) schools that cater for children with additional needs have a place, but funding should come from the same source as all other education.

If you’re going for ideal world perfectionist nonsense then no, you wouldn’t have specialist private schools either as the state schools would also cater for that…

But that would involve tax and spend, and no-one wants that

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 1:50 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 1:12 pm They way I look at it is that in most instances private education is a luxury that people choose, in that context it absolutely should be applicable for VAT.

Scott’s case is valid though, which is where something like a tax credit or even rolling special schools into the state system may be an option.

Which is the Value Added bit then for VAT to apply?

And should it be added to all forms of education?

Whatever it is that has people spending 10s of thousands to send their kids to that school instead of the local high school. imo having free at point of use state education is what makes the private option a "luxury", I have no issue with adding VAT to Uni fees either.

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 2:22 pm

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 1:50 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 1:12 pm They way I look at it is that in most instances private education is a luxury that people choose, in that context it absolutely should be applicable for VAT.

Scott’s case is valid though, which is where something like a tax credit or even rolling special schools into the state system may be an option.

Which is the Value Added bit then for VAT to apply?

And should it be added to all forms of education?

Whatever it is that has people spending 10s of thousands to send their kids to that school instead of the local high school. imo having free at point of use state education is what makes the private option a "luxury", I have no issue with adding VAT to Uni fees either.

You seem very focussed on the secondary school element. Primary is, in a lot of cases, not tens of thousands and many see that they don't have a choice given the local state offerings (or lack thereof).

It’s still more than free though?

Mito Man wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 2:02 pm If you’re going for ideal world perfectionist nonsense then no, you wouldn’t have specialist private schools either as the state schools would also cater for that…

That's why that's not what I'm saying.

it’s not just the vat that is the issue, if you class them as a business a massive amount of money could potentially be made from them, but then their costs would ultimately rise in accordance

Bear in mind if they are set up as a charity they will be able to claim massively reduced business rates (80% I believe) they won’t pay any tax on profits, and also any donation money they can claim giftaid on- so not only do they pull the best teachers in from the public system they don’t add money into the system which can be interpreted as a double whammy fuck you to people who can’t afford them


As for universities people leave with a mountain of debt, as not many students can actually afford to pay for them- and many career paths a degree is essential and non-optional. Adding vat to university fees would disproportionately punish those with low incomes- so there would either need to be further grants to prevent vat becoming a barrier to education or a major shift into workplace based learning, where fees are paid by companies who actively send you to do a degree, but this would have a different knock on by reducing the number of people on certain courses, eg English literature, maths, psychology etc. where jobs that directly use that knowledge day in day out will be few and far between

I think we need to get away from the “everyone needs a degree” thing tbh.

Applying for jobs as someone without one has become a demoralising chore as the algorithms just discount you before anyone actually looks at your CV

Sure there are some jobs where a degree level education is required but you shouldn’t need one for an entry level IT job.

Mito Man wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 2:02 pm If you’re going for ideal world perfectionist nonsense then no, you wouldn’t have specialist private schools either as the state schools would also cater for that…

That doesnt work. The whole point of the specialist school is that there are not a thousand kids at it and there are 3-4 kids in the class not 40.

scotta wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 5:00 pm

Mito Man wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 2:02 pm If you’re going for ideal world perfectionist nonsense then no, you wouldn’t have specialist private schools either as the state schools would also cater for that…

That doesnt work. The whole point of the specialist school is that there are not a thousand kids at it and there are 3-4 kids in the class not 40.

well now they'll need 4-5 kids per class to absorb the cost uplift.

There’s some really interesting views above. I have no vested interest in what happens to school fees, as I’m lucky enough to live in an area where there a very good state/grammar schools. However a lot of my clients will suffer and the effects on dramatically increasing school fees does concern them.
I can see a differentiation between ‘free’ education being non-VATable/VAT exempt but charging VAT on private schooling. It’s akin to a dentist doing a filling (which is VAT exempt as it’s a provision of medical services) or offering teeth whitening, which is potentially VATable (if it’s deemed cosmetic treatment).

The last point I’ll make is from a discussion today with a fellow partner (from our tax team) - fees charged may not necessarily increase by 20% if VAT is applied. The reason being is that savings could be made by claiming VAT on expenses, thereby reducing outgoings. It may be that the fee increase is ‘only’ 10%, for example.

Zed, you mention ‘luxury’ a few times. That is not the basis on which VAT is levied. For instance children’s clothes are VAT-free, whether they come from Primark or Balenciaga.

I’m not an expert (on anything really) so I may not be using the right language.

To me it’s the same unfair situation though.

It’s good that VAT isn’t applied to children’s clothes in general but it could be argued that it should be applied when folk are choosing to spend hundreds on 1 item.

Obviously much harder to differentiate in clothing and I’m not suggesting we should be trying to apply VAT in that way but in a situation where there is a fairly clear split where it could be applied we should.