Undergoing recalibration.

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mik
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Undergoing recalibration.

Post by mik »

[Quite a long read. TL/DR at teh end.]

Whilst straight-line speed isn’t it’s forte, there aren’t many times I’ve been disappointed by the Evora’s ability to casually dispatch overtakes, or generally pile on speed. “You just don’t need more power than this in a road car”.

And then.

In an act that I still “huh?” at to this day :? – Pete (RevsRus) asked me to look after both his dog and his 600LT for a weekend (3 days into his ownership (the car, not the dog)). Well, you like to help folks out don’t you? :geek: It’s years ago now, but it was single-digit degreesC, and the memory of it spinning the rears well into 3 figures as it fought to find traction, whilst simultaneously barrelling forwards at a rate that the Evora could only dream of, is still firmly etched in the old memory banks.

Yesterday was a similar day of recalibration.

I like my music. Fuck off mik - everyone likes their music. But the same piece of music can sound great or awful. In my 20’s, a good mate devoured every copy of Melody Maker and built a collection of what became a >2k circles of the vinyl variety. He introduced me to many great artists that would otherwise have passed me by, but he had a lot of humdrum stuff too. This approach didn’t appoeal to me. Whereas buying decent (but very much budget) quality audio components did. The rule of diminishing returns absolutely applies to Hi-Fi, but with a limited budget you can still get something that sounds reasonable.

My current NAD 3240PE amp is 32yrs old, but was a bit of a 90’s hero. Same model has been owned by Nef and Maurice (and others on here?) over the years. The “PE” in the model designation refers to “Power Envelope” : via voodoo and wizard electrickery, it is rated at a modest 40 watts per channel continuous, but is able deliver upto 140wpc for transients. Hence it plays like an amp with a rather higher output. It’s still a lovely item today, but the way modern music is mixed increasingly reveals the weaknesses in this approach. Yes the ample transient power can stick a thumping bass drum in your living room, but asking it to do so in the middle of a rich, flowing bass-line can leave it floundering.

Moh powah required.

So I ordered a Cambridge Audio AXR100D yesterday. 100watts per channel, and it’s apparently a class XD amp, for which the maker claims “Class XD is Cambridge Audio’s proprietary amplification system which combines the best of Class A and Class AB amplification, delivering the sound quality of a Class A amp while retaining the efficiency of a Class AB amp”.

And it hasn’t even arrived yet, so I can’t comment on that.

So why the fuck am I typing this now? :?

Well, I wasn’t going to get a new amp without also updating my speakers was I? My Tannoy Mercury V4i are decent, but they aren’t great. 2.5-way design with a tweeter handling crispy details, and 2x 6.5” drivers on duty for mid range and bass. I’d have dispatched them long ago if I hadn’t supplemented them with a Tannoy TS 2.10 (300watt powered sub with two 10” drivers (one active, one passive) to fill in the bottom end. The sub has spent a decade breezing down to 24Hz in relative comfort, as the rest of the system demanded but a fraction of it’s abilities. Funny things subs – they can add so much, but setup is absolutely crucial. You definitely want them in the mix, but only with frequencies that the conventional speakers can’t produce. Set the cross-over too high, and – whilst you’ll still enjoy rumbly goodness, it will also reinforce low notes that the main speakers are already playing, creating an unbalanced, boomy mess. Tweak them controls.

I’ve had my sights set on a pair of Monitor Audio Bronze 500 floor-standers for quite some time. Similar 2.5-way concept, but with a brace of larger 8” drivers supplementing the tweeter as opposed to 2x6.5”. Reviews highlighted controlled and powerful bass, with the mid-range understandably subdued. I eventually realised this was a questionable compromise. So I didn’t buy them.

Bowers & Wilkins (B&W to friends & family) have recently released the S3 version of their 603 model. They retail above my budget, but this update means the last remaining S2 versions are currently being discounted heavily, bringing them into consideration for the first time. Hmm.
Proper 3-way design. With a dedicated 6” mid-range driver, the twin 6.5” woofers are therefore left to focus only on bass tones. Which they do with some considerable control. It’s extremely difficult to achieve great bass extension with this setup, but that isn’t crucial if you own a sub. (Interestingly B&W quote dynamic range at both -3dB roll-off and -6dB, the former noting a reasonable 48hz lower end, but the latter listing 28Hz. So there is deep bass there - it’s just rather subdued). Similar in size to the old speakers, but around double the weight. Chunky monkies.

Unsurprisingly, the sub had to be tweaked to suit them. Crossover reduced a few clicks so it backed the fuck away from the low but not super low frequencies, and volume fiddled with. I didn’t go nuts as it’ll need tweaked again once the new amp is in situ, but I got to a point I was pretty happy with the setup.

And finally I get to the point. :roll:

As noted – the 3-way design provides a dedicated mid-range driver. Vocals and guitars are really quite incredible. The clarity and detail is delicious. And – unshackled from fannying around with said mid-range tones - the tweeters and woofers are able to do their thing with a rather increased focus. Zinging crispy treble. Tight and fast bass response, with the sub stepping in to cover the tummy-rumble end. It’s quite a weird thing when everything seems clearer and louder – it seems logical that one area of the frequency range must become dominant - but thankfully our ears/brain don’t work like that. Pick an instrument and follow it with ease.

Saturday night was spent traversing a huge range of genres from various decades, marvelling at elements in well-known songs that I’d never heard before. Volume levels weren’t crazy – cautious that the old NAD amp really isn’t up to driving them hard, but the piano in Madness It Must Be Love. Stevie Wonder’s harmonica work. The theoretical “without quiet, there can be no loud” masterclass offered through both Pixies No13 Baby, and Waking Up (MJ Cole & Freya Ridings). The crispness of hi-hat and ride cymbal on so many tracks on Nirvana’s Never Mind. The dynamic range of Clubbed To Death by the Heritage Orchestra / Pete Tong.

I could witter on, but aint nobody interested in someone attempting to describe in words how good a sound was. Suffice to say I spent the whole evening grinning and/or gurning my best “oooh” face to mrs mik.

I am part-way through recalibration. And it is good.

Tl/Dr : I bought some new speakers and I like them.

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DaveE
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Re: Undergoing recalibration.

Post by DaveE »

They do look very nice

I don't really have the space or money for a good hi-fi, plus we're in a terrace, so it's not like I could really enjoy one anyway

But your write up did remind me of some things...

I enjoy John Darko's content on YouTube, he has (IMO) a really good approach to things, it's all about the music (and he and I seem to share the same collection!)

But he's a strong advocate to treating a room, acoustically, to get the most out of things, rather than just buying more/more expensive equipment

A friend of mine has done some basic room treatment and claims it made a huge difference (he's a sound engineer/designer, and I trust his opinion)

And also you touch on the dynamic aspect to music, this too is something close to my heart and why I seek out specific versions of CDs (usually older ones) as they just sound so much better than a lot of more modern recordings

Again, John Darko talks about how the mastering of a recording is probably the single most important aspect (above everything else, the equipment, the room etc)

If I ever do end up getting a hi-fi, it's these principles (rather than just buying expensive kit) that I'll adhere too

It's like our appreciation of a small, light car and a more pure driving experience Vs a big, heavy car with huge power

The latter may impress in the short term, but I think the former is a more enjoyable long term experience...
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Jobbo
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Re: Undergoing recalibration.

Post by Jobbo »

They are much prettier than I was expecting from B&W. Nice looking. I liked the early 90s B&W big box 2-ways I had (I forget the model number and can’t be arsed to Google it).

I’ve always said that the speakers have the most effect on the sound so choose them first and everything else to match. I still love my Spendor SA1s - I like a small box - but I may have reason to look for something bigger soon having been house-hunting yesterday. I have long had a hankering for a set of Meridian DSP5200s and that deals with amp choice as well. Always wanted some Quad ESL57s too, though I suspect that even the ones rebuilt by One Thing Audio are due a rebuild by now… and I have no desire to electrocute any cats so they’re definitely out 😄

As for bass extension, I’ve never actually liked too much bass. It almost invariably stimulates some sort of resonance in your room so I’d rather it was less prominent.
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Re: Undergoing recalibration.

Post by 16vCento »

I had a very similar experience going from my old inherited Onkyo 5.1 amp and basic tiny speakers, to a new Yamaha amp and Celestion glass floor standers and matching surround set I found on market place ridiculously cheap.

Although obviously nowhere near the quality of Miks, it's amazing how much clarity there is now there's proper mid range available from all the speakers, and it's not all being made up by the sub.

The day I got them I sorted them out and we watched Elton John at Glastonbury on the BBC in 4k, and the sound was a world apart from before.

I need a new powered sub as mine is old, and some more surround speakers for the Atmos as theres high and low and center rear iirc. I'm keeping my eye on eBay and marketplace to see what comes up as I think it will make a big difference again.
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jamcg
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Re: Undergoing recalibration.

Post by jamcg »

I can only appreciate top quality hifi equipment to a point because my hearing is shocking
DaveE
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Re: Undergoing recalibration.

Post by DaveE »

jamcg wrote: Sun Sep 10, 2023 6:02 pm I can only appreciate top quality hifi equipment to a point because my hearing is shocking
Very much this
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Gavin
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Re: Undergoing recalibration.

Post by Gavin »

I am not even sure my amp is plugged in at the mains. I am fairly sure the CD player isn't. I have old Mission speakers, no idea, maybe 732s, and the amp/receiver is a Marantz that retailed around £600 back in the late 90s. Great kit, but if I am WFH I have my phone streaming through a freebie Bluetooth speaker from the EIS! :D
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DeskJockey
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Re: Undergoing recalibration.

Post by DeskJockey »

Jobbo wrote: Sun Sep 10, 2023 5:41 pm They are much prettier than I was expecting from B&W. Nice looking. I liked the early 90s B&W big box 2-ways I had (I forget the model number and can’t be arsed to Google it).

I’ve always said that the speakers have the most effect on the sound so choose them first and everything else to match. I still love my Spendor SA1s - I like a small box - but I may have reason to look for something bigger soon having been house-hunting yesterday. I have long had a hankering for a set of Meridian DSP5200s and that deals with amp choice as well. Always wanted some Quad ESL57s too, though I suspect that even the ones rebuilt by One Thing Audio are due a rebuild by now… and I have no desire to electrocute any cats so they’re definitely out 😄

As for bass extension, I’ve never actually liked too much bass. It almost invariably stimulates some sort of resonance in your room so I’d rather it was less prominent.
Where are you moving to? Is it four years since you bought the current house?
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Jimmy Choo
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Re: Undergoing recalibration.

Post by Jimmy Choo »

mik wrote: Sun Sep 10, 2023 12:11 pm Library image
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Re: Undergoing recalibration.

Post by Jimexpl »

Jobbo wrote: Sun Sep 10, 2023 5:41 pm They are much prettier than I was expecting from B&W. Nice looking. I liked the early 90s B&W big box 2-ways I had (I forget the model number and can’t be arsed to Google it).

I’ve always said that the speakers have the most effect on the sound so choose them first and everything else to match. I still love my Spendor SA1s - I like a small box - but I may have reason to look for something bigger soon having been house-hunting yesterday. I have long had a hankering for a set of Meridian DSP5200s and that deals with amp choice as well. Always wanted some Quad ESL57s too, though I suspect that even the ones rebuilt by One Thing Audio are due a rebuild by now… and I have no desire to electrocute any cats so they’re definitely out 😄

As for bass extension, I’ve never actually liked too much bass. It almost invariably stimulates some sort of resonance in your room so I’d rather it was less prominent.

Those B&W are a great speaker.

As a Meridian dealer, I’d say the 5200s sound nice, but there are better speakers for the money (as a new purchase). I just got a demo pair retrimmed in grey alcantara -
IMG_3918.jpeg
IMG_3918.jpeg (110.68 KiB) Viewed 1172 times
It’s too late for Mik, but if anyone ever wants half decent hifi I have trade accounts with a lot of the brands. For example, I can normally give at least 20% off B&W.
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Jobbo
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Re: Undergoing recalibration.

Post by Jobbo »

DeskJockey wrote: Sun Sep 10, 2023 8:05 pm
Jobbo wrote: Sun Sep 10, 2023 5:41 pm They are much prettier than I was expecting from B&W. Nice looking. I liked the early 90s B&W big box 2-ways I had (I forget the model number and can’t be arsed to Google it).

I’ve always said that the speakers have the most effect on the sound so choose them first and everything else to match. I still love my Spendor SA1s - I like a small box - but I may have reason to look for something bigger soon having been house-hunting yesterday. I have long had a hankering for a set of Meridian DSP5200s and that deals with amp choice as well. Always wanted some Quad ESL57s too, though I suspect that even the ones rebuilt by One Thing Audio are due a rebuild by now… and I have no desire to electrocute any cats so they’re definitely out 😄

As for bass extension, I’ve never actually liked too much bass. It almost invariably stimulates some sort of resonance in your room so I’d rather it was less prominent.
Where are you moving to? Is it four years since you bought the current house?
Six and a half years since we bought the current house. And a bit nearer to the office!

Jim, I’ve had some very well-priced DSP5200s offered to me over the years but never really had the room for them. Alcantara is not the finish I was after anyway (for once 😄)
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DeskJockey
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Re: Undergoing recalibration.

Post by DeskJockey »

@Jobbo Reducing the commute certainly makes good sense. Good luck with the hunt.
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Re: Undergoing recalibration.

Post by Gavster »

Jobbo wrote: Sun Sep 10, 2023 5:41 pm I’ve always said that the speakers have the most effect on the sound so choose them first and everything else to match. I still love my Spendor SA1s - I like a small box - but I may have reason to look for something bigger soon having been house-hunting yesterday.
I impulse bought a pair of SA1s based on their reputation around ten years ago and never connected with them. Got rid of them quite quickly. Auditioning kit properly is such a revealing process, because our musical/auditory tastes and therefore kit selection is highly personal. I've also auditioned a few B&W speakers over the years and also never connected with them either.

It would be nice to get back on the hifi train. One of my Sonus Faber speakers started making a buzzing noise and my Musical Fidelity power amp blew up last year. It's one of those luxuries that I rarely use, but exceedinly nice to have for those times when I want to disappear into some music.
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Jobbo
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Re: Undergoing recalibration.

Post by Jobbo »

Gavster wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:21 am I impulse bought a pair of SA1s based on their reputation around ten years ago and never connected with them.
I got mine having had a set of Spendor S5e floor standers previously. I had auditioned them beforehand and in fact had already got a set of the giant-killing Dali Zensor 1s to use rather than the S5e - the Dalis are a similar size to the SA1s but much less expensive. The contrast was quite marked; the Dalis are fun-loving, party time speakers and the SA1s aren't, yet I preferred the lack of boom and buzz with the SA1s. They remain some of my favourite speakers; I still use the Dalis too.

These days I'm as likely to go for something unobtrusive as a traditional stereo because family and cats don't go so well with geeky kit :lol:
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Re: Undergoing recalibration.

Post by Gavster »

Jobbo wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 10:27 am .. Dalis are fun-loving, party time speakers and the SA1s aren't...
That's probably the exact reason why I didn't like them :lol: I like some drama.
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Jobbo
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Re: Undergoing recalibration.

Post by Jobbo »

The SA1 isn't as laid back as the S5e was - and I often used to stay up late listening to Screamdelica loud on those. The Dalis are just in your face like a teenager in day-glo in comparison :lol:

Anyway, this just goes to reinforce my view that speakers are the most important thing to decide on. They differ more than anything else and are more personal too.
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Gavster
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Re: Undergoing recalibration.

Post by Gavster »

Agree with that - I've always found it's better to choose speakers that set your ears on fire, then find what amp they need to hit that sound.
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mik
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Re: Undergoing recalibration.

Post by mik »

Amp arrived a day earlier than expected.

All of the above commentary remains unchanged, but considerably louder. :geek:

And with a dedicated sub out (as opposed to taking a feed from the pre-amp on the old setup as it pre-dated that kinda shizzle) the deep tones sound somehow more natural/integrated.

Happy.
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GG.
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Re: Undergoing recalibration.

Post by GG. »

I have always liked B&W speakers and had several pairs back in the day (early 2000s). Some criticise them for being forward on account of the titanium tweeters but I had always generally paired them with mellow amps (e.g. an Audio Analogue Puccini) and listed to a lot of vinyl through them so not much of an issue for me.

My current Sonus Fabers lack a little attack (even using a Class D Devialet as amplification) so I was thinking of buying some 805D4s... however, the ones I really want are 803 D3s and they won't fit in my room so I have done precisely nothing :lol:
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GG.
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Re: Undergoing recalibration.

Post by GG. »

Jobbo wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 11:08 am The SA1 isn't as laid back as the S5e was - and I often used to stay up late listening to Screamdelica loud on those. The Dalis are just in your face like a teenager in day-glo in comparison :lol:

Anyway, this just goes to reinforce my view that speakers are the most important thing to decide on. They differ more than anything else and are more personal too.
This is probably true, nevertheless it does amaze me the difference an amp can make to the same set of speakers. Admittedly a quite extreme example but I have over the space of a decade (via several in between amps) gone from a Unison Research Simply Italy (12WPC) valve amp to a Devialet Expert 120. :lol:

Interestigly the little valve amp worked very nicely in my previous flat, with speakers firing across a narrow room, but was a disaster in my current living room so all needs to be demo'd in your specific space.

I also had a set of B&W 603s which I powered via a late 80s / 90s Technics amp (very respected in its time) and which were absolutely transformed by running them through a humdrum Sony AV rig, simply because it had 2x the power.
Last edited by GG. on Tue Sep 12, 2023 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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