OV9

Am I missing something, but I would say quite a few people in the public sector are on good money with decent pensions.

Teachers got 9 percent 3 months ago yet are on strike today.

I need educating how this is paid for?

The issue is every strike is being lumped together but the specifics of each one can be quite different.

My BIL is a Postman and despite being offered 9%, in return other payments, overtime entitlements , bonuses etc were being withdrawn so while the top line is 9%, the bottom line is nearer 1.5%

There's also working conditions elements though. Apparently the MD is trying to convert Royal Mail into just another courier company with normal letters as their 3rd priority after Parcels and high Margin Recorded delivery type items. He wants to makes Postmen Owner Drivers of their own vehicles with Zero Hour Contracts etc.

How much of this is true, I don't know but I'd guess teachers are striking for different reasons. I kept Mini Dinny off today as he only has 1 teacher working and he's got a bit of cold. I'd sooner he miss today than a full day on Friday

Did they actually get 9% or is that what they were offered but rejected?

I have no problem with fair and reasonable pay, but some of the demands are just crazy, and a lot of strike action is pretty short minded if it does long term damage to a business which sees it shrink or fold.

A lot of public sector workers are quick to forget that they often got pay rises well above the national average when the economy was shrinking and many private companies were struggling and making people redundant.

And I say that as probably one of the lowest earners on here who’s other half works for the nhs

As I keep saying - the Gov't will hold out a few months, wait for inflation to fall, and the offers will be put back on the table as above-inflationary.

If 9% is ont he table for some then they'd be as well off to take it imo as that might well drop in a couple of months' time.

Certainly each one has different circumstances and merits. Some of the salaries you see in these sectors surprise you by how much they are on for the level of skill needed, and some look really low.

I don't think strike action is a great negotiating tool really, if the gov give in to it in one case they know it's just going to become more prevalent and break the bank everywhere. Ideally market forces dictate pay for all and it's fair, but there are not private sector equivalents for some roles (probably most though!) in which case I guess their only option is to strike.

duncs500 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:28 am Ideally market forces dictate pay for all and it's fair, but there are not private sector equivalents for some roles (probably most though!) in which case I guess their only option is to strike.

Exactly, how does a teacher negotiate a better salary without striking? Market forces are shit at producing decent wages for most tbh, unless you're in the position to offer something rare and/or valuable you're fucked.

dinny_g wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:47 am Apparently the MD is trying to convert Royal Mail into just another courier company with normal letters as their 3rd priority after Parcels and high Margin Recorded delivery type items. He wants to makes Postmen Owner Drivers of their own vehicles with Zero Hour Contracts etc.

Here's the problem with RM strikes - they're a business operating in a highly competitive environment, against companies that aren't striking. The market for parcel delivery has exploded and they need to fight to keep their share of the market. If they don't remain competitive, they will lose business, and by the sounds of it, they already have lost a lot because of these strikes. If RM workers push too hard, RM will lose even more revenue, which means less chance of a pay rise, or redundancies when Evri have picked up all the small/medium parcel business.

As for teachers and hospital workers, strikes make more sense. It's hugely disruptive when schools close and hospitals can't operate properly.

We're still with RM for most of our UK volume, we tried moving our next day volume to DPD but they fucked up so comprehensively we just managed with RM and UPS over Q4.

Essentially they're all shite but RM is still a better compromise of price and performance than the others.

Royal Mail made significant profits during Covid and opted to pay 70% out as a dividend and then significant bonuses for all top execs.

Then when the Postmen and Women - who kept working during Covid to allow those profits to be made - want a pay increase, they're told "Sorry, there's no Money" etc.

I have a modicum of sympathy and I'm staunchly Anti-Union

dinny_g wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:58 am Royal Mail made significant profits during Covid and opted to pay 70% out as a dividend and then significant bonuses for all top execs.

IIRC the CEO's bonus was linked to the dividend, so of course they elected to pay a 'special dividend' so that they could get their fat bonuses.

Another of those things that should be back in public ownership IMO. Along with:

Water companies (there is no local competition)
Post office
National grid
Railways
Buses.
Prisons.

I knew a couple of posties and they've never striked before, but they did recently. Like everyone's said, Royal Mail seem to be caught up in a race to the bottom to be the cheapest service out there and there's very stiff competition in that arena. It's not a great look when they've made such massive profits and you do wonder if they've just been so slow to react to all of this emerging competition (5+ years ago?).

The NHS appears to be getting run in to the ground, but when there's so many staff shortages, why would a big hospital like the Edinburgh Royal Infirmary ban nurses from parking there on weekdays? There's a nice big car park and there's lots of nurses who would like to work there, but the transport options just aren't practical. There's also lots of final year nursing students who are about to qualify and won't work there because of that. With my logical project manager head on, there's so many things day to day I hear about which just beggar belief.

But yeah, the pay is also crap for the work they do.

ZedLeg wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:37 am

duncs500 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:28 am Ideally market forces dictate pay for all and it's fair, but there are not private sector equivalents for some roles (probably most though!) in which case I guess their only option is to strike.

Exactly, how does a teacher negotiate a better salary without striking? Market forces are shit at producing decent wages for most tbh, unless you're in the position to offer something rare and/or valuable you're fucked.

Teaching has a private sector. If I felt my salary was inadequate I would find another job with a better salary, I don't have a union. I would do the same if I was a teacher, or indeed anything else.

But also get far better sick / holiday / pension than equivalent paid private sector jobs.

Most of the complaints my mrs has are about the way they’re managed and never listened to.

And that's where a lot of nurses end up. In private jobs, or working for nurse banks and agencies, being hired back by the NHS on twice the rate they'd be getting from the NHS.

integrale_evo wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:46 pmMost of the complaints my mrs has are about the way they’re managed and never listened to.

Isn’t that just “work” ??

Ascender wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:50 pm And that's where a lot of nurses end up. In private jobs, or working for nurse banks and agencies, being hired back by the NHS on twice the rate they'd be getting from the NHS.

Indeed, and the upshot of that will be that the NHS needs to pay more salary to save money on these hired in rates and attract people. Sends a more effective message than a strike IMO.

duncs500 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:57 pm

Ascender wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:50 pm And that's where a lot of nurses end up. In private jobs, or working for nurse banks and agencies, being hired back by the NHS on twice the rate they'd be getting from the NHS.

Indeed, and the upshot of that will be that the NHS needs to pay more salary to save money on these hired in rates and attract people. Sends a more effective message than a strike IMO.

The thing is that while agency work pays more it's not as reliable as a contract with the NHS. The best way to negotiate salaries when you're in banded groups like teachers and nurses is to negotiate collectively as a bloc or "union" .

Basically anyone who works in a job where nationally there are thousands of you all getting paid by the same place doesn't have a chance of getting much in an individual negotiation.

duncs500 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:46 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:37 am

duncs500 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:28 am Ideally market forces dictate pay for all and it's fair, but there are not private sector equivalents for some roles (probably most though!) in which case I guess their only option is to strike.

Exactly, how does a teacher negotiate a better salary without striking? Market forces are shit at producing decent wages for most tbh, unless you're in the position to offer something rare and/or valuable you're fucked.

Teaching has a private sector. If I felt my salary was inadequate I would find another job with a better salary, I don't have a union. I would do the same if I was a teacher, or indeed anything else.

Teachers in state schools haven't complained about pay for years, yet they used to do so all the time. As far as I'm aware they're paid pretty well these days; much more so than other public sector funded workers like nurses and legal aid lawyers. I'm sure the strike isn't just about money but that does seem to be the headline issue; it's not necessarily a good look to go out on strike when others who appear more deserving are doing so.

My brother's wife is the deputy head of a local primary school.

They say it's not about the pay so much, but that schools are telling them to give pay rises out of the general budget for the school, which means that other areas suffer, such as equipment, SEN teachers, etc etc. They want to see a general increase in school budgets, not just a teacher pay rise.

Simon wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:32 pm My brother's wife is the deputy head of a local primary school.

They say it's not about the pay so much, but that schools are telling them to give pay rises out of the general budget for the school, which means that other areas suffer, such as equipment, SEN teachers, etc etc. They want to see a general increase in school budgets, not just a teacher pay rise.

Yeah, I wondered if that was the case when I saw the signs in the news. A lot of them are specifically about funding rather than wages.