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Re: Bye Bye Sunak..
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 12:22 pm
by 240PP
That’s not
really what he’s saying though.
He’s talking about people not working and claiming mental health issues when in some cases it’s just ‘life stuff’.
Re: Bye Bye Sunak..
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 12:25 pm
by ZedLeg
In practice what he’s proposing won’t discriminate between folk skiving and folk who actually need the support.
People are increasingly pressured and the government is now saying that if you struggle with that pressure you just have to suck it up.
If what he’s suggesting comes to pass it will he a disaster for the country’s mental health.
Re: Bye Bye Sunak..
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 12:54 pm
by dinny_g
As it typical of this government (or any government really) this is a ham fisted introduction to the policy change.
However, in the background, I do think there are certain aspects of modern life which need to be "nipped in the bud" somewhat before Pandora's box is opened and can't be shut.
A friend of mine has a small IT company and recently took on a new cohort of 10 trainees - youngsters, all under the age of 25. In the onboarding day, they had the following exchange with one of them.
Employee - What is your mental health policy when it comes to Pets?
Employer - Well pets play a huge part in our lives and bereavement can have massive impact, comparable to loosing a family member. So it you loose a pet we completely understand - I'm a pet owner myself so I totally get it - so speak with your line manager and compassionate leave will be given of course to allow you to properly grieve.
Employee (Dead pan and with all seriousness) - No you misunderstand. Can I take paid leave to look after my pet if they are depressed - i.e. if the Pet's depressed.
They seemed quite shocked and upset that paid leave to look after a depressed cat wasn't available.
Re: Bye Bye Sunak..
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 1:03 pm
by ZedLeg
I would say that considering depressed pet leave isn’t a thing then that example isn’t really relevant.
It’s just someone asking a stupid question.
I just came across an interesting thread on how this kind of policy talk works.
https://x.com/alexandraerin/status/1004 ... QnW3eQVIwA
Re: Bye Bye Sunak..
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 1:18 pm
by dinny_g
ZedLeg wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 1:03 pm
I would say that considering depressed pet leave isn’t a thing then that example isn’t really relevant.
It’s just someone asking a stupid question.
I just came across an interesting thread on how this kind of policy talk works.
https://x.com/alexandraerin/status/1004 ... QnW3eQVIwA
A lot of what is now deemed acceptable and in cases, mandatory in modern life would have been considered stupid 10 or 12 years ago.
Some things need to be nipped in the bud.
Re: Bye Bye Sunak..
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 1:20 pm
by ZedLeg
Like what?
Re: Bye Bye Sunak..
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 1:32 pm
by drcarlos
dinny_g wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 12:54 pm
As it typical of this government (or any government really) this is a ham fisted introduction to the policy change.
However, in the background, I do think there are certain aspects of modern life which need to be "nipped in the bud" somewhat before Pandora's box is opened and can't be shut.
A friend of mine has a small IT company and recently took on a new cohort of 10 trainees - youngsters, all under the age of 25. In the onboarding day, they had the following exchange with one of them.
Employee - What is your mental health policy when it comes to Pets?
Employer - Well pets play a huge part in our lives and bereavement can have massive impact, comparable to loosing a family member. So it you loose a pet we completely understand - I'm a pet owner myself so I totally get it - so speak with your line manager and compassionate leave will be given of course to allow you to properly grieve.
Employee (Dead pan and with all seriousness) - No you misunderstand. Can I take paid leave to look after my pet if
they are depressed - i.e. if the Pet's depressed.
They seemed quite shocked and upset that paid leave to look after a depressed cat wasn't available.
Their policy seems fair and probably a lot more than I would expect to be granted.
DO they have a probation period clause in the employment contract?
Re: Bye Bye Sunak..
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 2:07 pm
by Jobbo
ZedLeg wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 1:20 pmLike what?
It is not at all beyond comprehension that an employee may request bereavement leave because their emotional support pet dies. HR law loves this stuff; it's a very grey area and who wants to spend lots of money on lawyers to be the test case?
Re: Bye Bye Sunak..
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 2:14 pm
by ZedLeg
I got two days off to take my cat to the vet to be put to sleep. It was a pretty decent thing to do.
It fits my point tbh, people work longer and harder than ever now and a little consideration to how that affects mental health wouldn’t go amiss.
Re: Bye Bye Sunak..
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 2:16 pm
by dinny_g
ZedLeg wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 2:14 pm
people work longer and harder than ever now
Is that true ??
Re: Bye Bye Sunak..
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 2:17 pm
by Jobbo
It fits your point? I doubt your employment contract has anything in it about time off for pets. It was simply a decent thing to do. Nothing to do with Sunak's announcement or sick notes or rights.
Ultimately Sunak's announcement benefits anyone with mental health issues now. They won't need to go to the doctor; they can self-certify time off.
Re: Bye Bye Sunak..
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 2:44 pm
by ZedLeg
I think that point was just in my head
Something about supporting people who need help rather than making their life harder.
I assume that you’re being facetious? Employers won’t accept self certification for a longer term or recurring illness.
Re: Bye Bye Sunak..
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 2:46 pm
by ZedLeg
dinny_g wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 2:16 pm
ZedLeg wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 2:14 pm
people work longer and harder than ever now
Is that true ??
You know what, I thought I read something the other day about it but I can’t find it.
Might have been talking pish, unemployment is turning my brain to mush.
Re: Bye Bye Sunak..
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 2:58 pm
by dinny_g
From a personal perspective, I work far fewer hours than I did 20 years ago - probably 45 to 50 down to strictly 37.5
And my working life is far less stressful as my employer considers work life balance and mental health very highly.
This despite being a lot more “senior” now
But I get this isn’t necessarily representative
Re: Bye Bye Sunak..
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 3:07 pm
by ZedLeg
I found that it was easier to manage that stuff as I moved up as I have more autonomy.
Entry level folk are still very much at the mercy of their line managers who can be good or bad. Taking away the extra support of having a doctor on board will exacerbate problems there.
Re: Bye Bye Sunak..
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 3:15 pm
by mik
I wonder how much difference it would make.
Docs today take a very conservative approach to protect their patients and themselves - I don't beleive there is really any downside to them signing someone off for stress/anxiety/whatever (?) so they tend to take a cautious decision. There isn't time during a normal consultation to do a full assessment.
Re: Bye Bye Sunak..
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 3:17 pm
by dinny_g
ZedLeg wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 3:07 pm
I found that it was easier to manage that stuff as I moved up as I have more autonomy.
Yeah that's true...
But in the past couple of years I've had two very positive experiences where they "put their money where their mouth is"
1. People left the company (employees and contractors) so I inherited several inflight projects. After 6 or 8 weeks, I sat down with my line manager, we talked through the workload, agreed it was excessive so they took a contract PM on a year long contract and I handed off some responsibility
2. My Partner had some struggles during COVID and there was a specific 2 week period where she needed particular care and attention. Despite this being during the busy period above, I was given 3 weeks leave to take care of things and was offered more if needed.
I guess I'm just one of the lucky ones with a great corporate culture and great managers. My managers have been exclusively Women for the past 15 years or so and I think that has a massive impact. (But that's a whole other debate). I much prefer working for Women
Re: Bye Bye Sunak..
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 4:40 pm
by Jobbo
ZedLeg wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 2:44 pm
I assume that you’re being facetious? Employers won’t accept self certification for a longer term or recurring illness.
I'm not being facetious but I don't think you're seeing it the way I do. If a sick note is not obtainable, there is no way to certify sickness except self-cert. So employers are going to have to accept it - this will create a new HR headache.
Re: Bye Bye Sunak..
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 5:10 pm
by ZedLeg
There’s no way that a supermarket (for example) is going to accept a situation where anyone can sign themselves off.
For most service jobs not producing a sick note for any absence longer than three days is a disciplinary offence.
Re: Bye Bye Sunak..
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 5:24 pm
by Swervin_Mervin
dinny_g wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 12:54 pm
As it typical of this government (or any government really) this is a ham fisted introduction to the policy change.
However, in the background, I do think there are certain aspects of modern life which need to be "nipped in the bud" somewhat before Pandora's box is opened and can't be shut.
A friend of mine has a small IT company and recently took on a new cohort of 10 trainees - youngsters, all under the age of 25. In the onboarding day, they had the following exchange with one of them.
Employee - What is your mental health policy when it comes to Pets?
Employer - Well pets play a huge part in our lives and bereavement can have massive impact, comparable to loosing a family member. So it you loose a pet we completely understand - I'm a pet owner myself so I totally get it - so speak with your line manager and compassionate leave will be given of course to allow you to properly grieve.
Employee (Dead pan and with all seriousness) - No you misunderstand. Can I take paid leave to look after my pet if
they are depressed - i.e. if the Pet's depressed.
They seemed quite shocked and upset that paid leave to look after a depressed cat wasn't available.
I'd be very wary of anyone who likes to loosen up their pets...