OV9

ZedLeg wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:12 pm Right, when you say no pay rise. You mean nothing, not even a cost of living adjustment?

I had pay frozen for 3 years when Perkins were not doing well, it’s normal from the manufacturing industry.

Where will the magic money appear from ?

Dave!

V8Granite wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:30 pm

ZedLeg wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:12 pm Right, when you say no pay rise. You mean nothing, not even a cost of living adjustment?

I had pay frozen for 3 years when Perkins were not doing well, it’s normal from the manufacturing industry.

Where will the magic money appear from ?

Dave!

Dave don't waste your time.

V8Granite wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:30 pm

ZedLeg wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:12 pm Right, when you say no pay rise. You mean nothing, not even a cost of living adjustment?

I had pay frozen for 3 years when Perkins were not doing well, it’s normal from the manufacturing industry.

Where will the magic money appear from ?

Dave!

Unless the company is really struggling then the money’s there.

I managed to work out at least a couple of percent increases for my whole team last month, despite the company “not hitting projections”.

The reason the whole idea of unions became bad is so that companies can take the piss without worrying about anybody coming back with equal influence. I’m genuinely amazed that so many people are just fine with it.

The company was struggling, hence no pay rise.

Dave!

Well like I say if they were really circling the drain and the money wasn’t there that’s different.

The whole grr unions thing doesn’t make sense to me though. I don’t understand how anybody who’s worked low paid jobs wouldn’t see the benefit of a union.

If you’re on a high salary it’s different but if you were on £20k 4 years ago and still on £20k now you’d be feeling the difference.

If you’re on 20k though and paying 0.5% to the union, being out of work for a week as Bob stole some injectors starts to rub you the wrong way.

I’ve never been in a non militant union though.

I currently pay 1.5% to the union but if the world calms down again, I’ll leave instead.

Dave!

So unions are fine while you might need one?

ZedLeg wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:42 pm So unions are fine while you might need one?

This is solely down to the Norwegian system being so ridiculously complicated I could never navigate it myself.

If this was the U.K. I would not have joined, I see the hypocracy though, I’ve managed 8.5 years not in

Dave!

I'm sure everyone will explain why I'm wrong, but I would have thought that the jobs market drives the salary market, insofar as when a company is recruiting the salary offered will be a combination of supply/demand, skill set (including as it relates to experience) and training (and time and cost required to obtain it). Obviously if already employed in the role you can then use whatever offer they use to hire new starts to renegotiate depending on that supply and demand situation and your experience.

I'm trying to get my head round why the above can't apply whether you work in the private or public sector, aside from probably a handful of highly skilled roles that do not exist in both.

If your job is genuinely needed, and you're highly skilled, I'd suggest you'll walk into a private sector role where the salary has been graded by market forces. The reason they don't is that probably their salary, and moreover their overall package (pension for example) is a lot more competitive than they're letting on.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61874786

Dave!

Swervin_Mervin wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:36 pm Unions, in theory (like Communism) are a good thing.

That's the most correct statement in this entire thread.

It's often the case with collective systems and ideologies. I know someone who lives in a housing co-operative, one of those idyllic places where all of the residents work together to run the place and in return, you get to live in a 1 bed flat in Zone 1 for £350 a month. Perfect, eh?

Except it's a hellhole of infighting, resentment and bullying. People who have been there forty years literally think they can make casting votes on decisions and shut down newbies or threaten them with eviction (That's totally not allowed, but they've done it). The old people are so aggressive and resistant to change that parts of the place are falling apart because they won't agree on renovatation. But they're happy to install air-con in their own flat on committee money. It's going full-on Lord of the Flies. Everyone is scared of going to the council to report the whole scenario because they'd bring in management and double the rent. Then there's a racist alcoholic who I've had to give a police statement about because I witnessed his threats.

Honestly, give me capitalist structures of power any day

Gavster wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:24 am
Honestly, give me capitalist structures of power any day

At least then you only have to argue with one entitled boomer to get anything done

ZedLeg wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:24 am

Gavster wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:24 am
Honestly, give me capitalist structures of power any day

At least then you only have to argue with one entitled boomer to get anything done

I've generally felt like I had more agency in that situation

ZedLeg wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:54 pm The reason the whole idea of unions became bad is so that companies can take the piss without worrying about anybody coming back with equal influence. I’m genuinely amazed that so many people are just fine with it.

I think it's more because plenty of people remember the 1970s and early 80s; unions dragged the country into such a state that Margaret Thatcher was elected. Is that what you want, because that's what'll happen?

[Please note: this is aimed at Zed, and is not my own view of Thatcher who I think did an excellent job in the main]

Jobbo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:22 am

ZedLeg wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:54 pm The reason the whole idea of unions became bad is so that companies can take the piss without worrying about anybody coming back with equal influence. I’m genuinely amazed that so many people are just fine with it.

I think it's more because plenty of people remember the 1970s and early 80s; unions dragged the country into such a state that Margaret Thatcher was elected. Is that what you want, because that's what'll happen?

Thatcher would probably be an improvement at this point, she at least seemed to be competent in her malicious tory way

ZedLeg wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:23 am Thatcher would probably be an improvement at this point, she at least seemed to be competent in her malicious tory way

Thatcher pointed a gun at you and said "Give me your money"

Boris puts his arm around you and says "Righto, lets see how we can help you" whilst lifting your wallet from your back pocket.

dinny_g wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:11 pm Thatcher pointed a gun at you and said "Give me your money"

Boris puts his arm around you and says "Righto, lets see how we can help you" whilst lifting your wallet from your back pocket.

Rory Steward was hammering Boris last week, saying that he is totally untrustworthy, both personally and politically. Working closely with him, apparently you have no idea what Boris really thinks as he will always say whatever he thinks sounds best in that moment.

Obviously coming from my left wing commie echo chamber but it looks like Mick Lynch had a good day making the press look silly yesterday.

Gavster wrote: ↑Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:49 am

dinny_g wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:11 pm Thatcher pointed a gun at you and said "Give me your money"

Boris puts his arm around you and says "Righto, lets see how we can help you" whilst lifting your wallet from your back pocket.

Rory Steward was hammering Boris last week, saying that he is totally untrustworthy, both personally and politically. Working closely with him, apparently you have no idea what Boris really thinks as he will always say whatever he thinks sounds best in that moment.

Thus proving the old adage…

Boris is a weathervane… pointing wherever the prevailing wind is blowing

Maggie was a signpost… you may not like where she was pointing but you always knew where she was pointing…