OV9

Can fuck right off

Every last fucking one of them…

Unions are good actually

I was listening to the radio this morning en route to the airport (a hastily reorganised flight due to industrial action at the original destination) - train driver strike - and thinking how much more folks will be held to ransom as people are forced out of their cars into public transport. Joy.

mik wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:49 pm folks will be held to ransom

There it is - I'll just leave it here...

It is a powerful and original thought about unions.

I'd rather live in a world with unions than without them though.

ZedLeg wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:56 pm It is a powerful and original thought about unions.

Doesn't make it untrue though...

Who are they holding to ransom? I've always felt it's a bit of a histrionic reaction to a rail strike.

Using a period of national uncertainty with recession looming due to factors such as Brexit, COVID and Ukraine to negotiate pay increases by stopping critical services until they get what they want.,.

I’d say they are holding the entire country to ransom

dinny_g wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:08 pm Using a period of national uncertainty with recession looming due to factors such as Brexit, COVID and Ukraine to negotiate pay increases by stopping critical services until they get what they want.,.

I’d say they are holding the entire country to ransom

See what I mean, histrionic.

If I had been working in places where I was highly likely to get a serious illness for the last 3 years and was then told that my salary was going down in real terms I'd probably go on strike too.

It's always funny to see people who are absolutely cut throat about getting the best for themselves in the private sector go on about how people in the public sector shouldn't use the tools at their disposal.

ZedLeg wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:14 pm If I had been working in places where I was highly likely to get a serious illness for the last 3 years and was then told that my salary was going down in real terms I'd probably go on strike too.

My other half has spent the last 18 months working (in the private sector) in a situation with a high likelihood of catching Covid and due the realities of the market, has not had a pay increase in the past 3 years. Her real terms salary has decreased.

the public sector aren't special - they should stop thinking they are.

I think the unions are doing the right thing, unlike Grant Shapps and Sajid Javid who seem to think the opposition party run the country not them.

However, I don't agree with their demands here. There is inflation and it'll just be stoked by giving the RMT members large pay rises. Services have been cut which dissuades people from getting back on the train - which is what is required to justify the existence of the drivers and crew. So they're at risk of exacerbating what are already massive problems for their industry. Don't make this like the miners' strike FFS.

dinny_g wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:22 pm

ZedLeg wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:14 pm If I had been working in places where I was highly likely to get a serious illness for the last 3 years and was then told that my salary was going down in real terms I'd probably go on strike too.

My other half has spent the last 18 months working (in the private sector) in a situation with a high likelihood of catching Covid and due the realities of the market, has not had a pay increase in the past 3 years. Her real terms salary has decreased.

the public sector aren't special - they should stop thinking they are.

You don't think it's unusual to think that everyone should put up with unfair treatment rather than try and improve things for the people who're being treated unfairly?

Like, it sucks for your wife that she's in this position. Rather than saying it's not fair that those people are in a better one, the focus should be on getting people like your wife there.

I don't agree with racing to the bottom, which is what it sounds ilke you're using as justification Dinny. Unions, in theory (like Communism) are a good thing. That said, it does sometimes seem like they are astoundingly bad at reading the room - probably because they largely exist these days to support public sector workers.

In practice, however, and like most bodies/institutions their mission becomes corrupted by power, politics and probably money. I'd still rather they were here, but I'm not sure how you go about "fixing" the faults.

ZedLeg wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:28 pm

dinny_g wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:22 pm

ZedLeg wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:14 pm If I had been working in places where I was highly likely to get a serious illness for the last 3 years and was then told that my salary was going down in real terms I'd probably go on strike too.

My other half has spent the last 18 months working (in the private sector) in a situation with a high likelihood of catching Covid and due the realities of the market, has not had a pay increase in the past 3 years. Her real terms salary has decreased.

the public sector aren't special - they should stop thinking they are.

You don't think it's unusual to think that everyone should put up with unfair treatment rather than try and improve things for the people who're being treated unfairly?

Like, it sucks for your wife that she's in this position. Rather than saying it's not fair that those people are in a better one, the focus should be on getting people like your wife there.

Change always occurs in industry, some jobs which were hugely lucrative are now not so much. Look at the rush on Plumbers years back. Candle makers used to be the rich folk near mines years back.

Have they been treated unfairly or have times changed ? I could have got £1000 a day 15 years back in some areas, now I couldn’t get half that in those same jobs. So should I be set for a big pay rise ?

Also the jobs affected have incredibly good overtime rates, time off in liu, other bonuses etc.

What’s unfair about what affects them directly ?

Dave!

ZedLeg wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:28 pm

dinny_g wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:22 pm

ZedLeg wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:14 pm If I had been working in places where I was highly likely to get a serious illness for the last 3 years and was then told that my salary was going down in real terms I'd probably go on strike too.

My other half has spent the last 18 months working (in the private sector) in a situation with a high likelihood of catching Covid and due the realities of the market, has not had a pay increase in the past 3 years. Her real terms salary has decreased.

the public sector aren't special - they should stop thinking they are.

Like, it sucks for your wife that she's in this position. Rather than saying it's not fair that those people are in a better one, the focus should be on getting people like your wife there.

There’s nothing Unfair about not getting a pay increase if your employer cannot afford an increase. There’s nothing unfair about having to go into the office if your employer deems it essential - which it largely is. That’s just life. Get over it.

How does “well that’s just how the market values your labour dear” go down?

The way that successive governments have used bad behaviour in some unions to persuade working people that having someone to fight in their interest is bad is kind of admirable tbh.

Swervin_Mervin wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:36 pm I don't agree with racing to the bottom, which is what it sounds ilke you're using as justification Dinny.

Completely the opposite - “racing to the bottom” - ie collective type bargaining is the absolute worst thing about unions IMO

ZedLeg wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:09 pm How does “well that’s just how the market values your labour dear” go down?

Fine - because she’s a fucking grown up

Right, when you say no pay rise. You mean nothing, not even a cost of living adjustment?

I’m out. I’ve made my point.