Big Fish or Little Fish

[Aml1987]

No cardboard boxes I’m afraid, just a serious question about jobs. To quote my dad would you rather be a big fish in a small pond or a small fish in a big pond?

Basically I have been in my job for 16 years and have worked my arse off going above and beyond what’s required all the time because the carrot of being made a director one day has been dangled, however a salesman who has been there 6 years has just been promoted to a director having achieved fuck all other than a brown nose.

I have been offered a job elsewhere that would make me the small fish in the big pond at around the same salary but obviously not with the supposed chance I have where I am!

Any advice muchly welcomed

[Matty]

I'd move on principle alone TBH

[Rich B]

Depends entirely on you. Working for a big corporate company interests me about as much as a punch in the face, but everyone is different.

I left a well established medium sized company to join what was more or less a start up. I've enjoyed being part of a growing team - my company has grown from 6 people to over 30 of us since I started and I've seen my role move up with it.

If you're interested in being a director/leader/whatever, make sure that's part of the route when you join the company, otherwise you'll just be having the same dilemma in x years time.

[Aml1987]

That’s pretty much how I feel, but wasn’t sure if I was just being petty about it and better the devil you know so to speak?

[dinny_g]

You’ll never be made Director and I think you know that.

You’re institutionalised as far as the company are concerned. You’ll just stay and they feel they no longer need to work to keep you so they won’t.

So long as everything else is aligned - the new job is secure, it’s right for your family etc, then go.

Even if they offer you Director to stay, they are only doing it to stop you leaving…

I was in the exact same situation about 7 years ago. I’ve no regrets so good luck

[Aml1987]

Depends entirely on you. Working for a big corporate company interests me about as much as a punch in the face, but everyone is different.

I left a well established medium sized company to join what was more or less a start up. I've enjoyed being part of a growing team - my company has grown from 6 people to over 30 of us since I started and I've seen my role move up with it.

If you're interested in being a director/leader/whatever, make sure that's part of the route when you join the company, otherwise you'll just be having the same dilemma in x years time.

Being a director is pretty much guaranteed when my boss retires in the next few years but it feels like they have made a role for the rep just because the face fits so I guess the question is more do I want to be a part of that when the reward doesn’t necessarily correlate with the effort put in?

[Beany]

Depends entirely on you. Working for a big corporate company interests me about as much as a punch in the face, but everyone is different.

I left a well established medium sized company to join what was more or less a start up. I've enjoyed being part of a growing team - my company has grown from 6 people to over 30 of us since I started and I've seen my role move up with it.

If you're interested in being a director/leader/whatever, make sure that's part of the route when you join the company, otherwise you'll just be having the same dilemma in x years time.

Being a director is pretty much guaranteed when my boss retires in the next few years

Unless someone else joins who's face fits better.

Fuck them off. Big time.

[Rich B]

To reverse it, why should they make you a director? Have you been demonstrating the leadership qualities required for the role? What benefit would they get from moving you up? If it purely comes down to "you've been there the longest" or "you might leave if they don't" then maybe you're fighting a losing battle.

But no matter what, never take career advice from Beany.

[Beany]

I'll grant you, Rich makes some valid points.

But after sixteen years, if you broach the subject of having a useful stake in the company, and you get an answer that sounds like they didn't even consider you on that sort of role, you should be considering your position pretty seriously.

And Rich has a point, if you've not shown an interest in the growth of the company beyond your own corner of it, then that might explain a lot. That's not necessarily to your detriment, by the way - serious stakes in a company are serious, and while, for example, my actions in my current company are responsible for near 75% of it's income, that doesn't remotely mean I'm 75% of the company; with enough practice, that part of my job could be replaced by a trained monkey.

They just don't want to pay for a trained monkey because why do that, when I do it? If I leave, they'll have to (and for a Serious Systems Admin, and a Serious Telecoms NOC, and Serious Data Entry, etc) but that reality won't hit them until I..... leave. I'd like to think otherwise but after over five years....

I say that having never managed to maintain an interest in a company for much more than five years though I think I'm an ADHD contractor at the core of my dark heart.

In all seriousness, have a quiet word with someone on the executive team who you trust about this.

If you don't trust anyone on the executive team about something like this, then you've probably answered your own question and may benefit from working in a different environment, for the same money, somewhere else where your have options.

Those options may not be 'Director of X', but 'senior manager of X at Amazon/eBay/etc' has more cache than 'director of sales at podunk company Y'.....

[Aml1987]

I have always been invested in the development and future of the company and all of the board know that which is why it feels like such a massive kick in the balls not being made a director before someone who has been there a 1/3rd of the time and not but much effort in, I guess ultimately the question I’m asking is are they taking the piss which = leave, or am overreacting about it all and just sit it out and see what happens?

[DaveE]

Loyalty etc means fuck all when it comes to business

Move

[Beany]

You need to have a chat with someone who you trust about your position in the company.

I'd do this where I am, but I know exactly where my position is - I'm the fat cunt who sits in the corner doing fuck all, according to multiple reports of what the CEO has said about me.
From other C-level staff who have less than 50% combined shares and who have tried to make my importance clear to the CEO.

Oh well, Indeed it is....

[IanF]

You’re obviously pissed off about being overlooked for the promotion. Don’t be rash, but look at other options, consider if they work for you and your family, apply for the positions that interest you and make it clear during the interview you want to progress through the company, see if what they offer is what you want and then worry about whether leaving is the right thing to do!

[jamcg]

That’s pretty much how I feel, but wasn’t sure if I was just being petty about it and better the devil you know so to speak?

I’d feel like this. I’d at least apply for the other position, you can always decline the job but if you miss the deadline you might regret it.

The other thing I’d consider, if you do make director and sit alongside this other guy, would you be doing all the work and carrying him along with you? Would you be prepared to do that if so?

[mik]

There is really very little others can do to advise here.

Not all small companies are the same.
Not all big companies are the same.
Sometimes change can provide opportunities and personal growth by taking yourself outside of your comfort zone.
Sometimes you find the grass only appeared to be greener on the other side.

You might be a smaller fish in a bigger company, but instead of being 1 of 10 competing for one more senior role, you are 1 of 100 competing for 10 different more senior opportunities. Or possibly not.

Having no idea what periodic review or development planning processes your company has, my advice would be a calm and frank discussion with your manager / HR / more senior leader. I can’t really judge what is appropriate, but if your manager can’t give you the answers I would at least let them know that you are asking for a chat with their boss before you ask that boss.

Some people are happy to let their work speak form them, others spend more time self-promoting than working. Sometimes the hard worker gets promoted. Sometimes the spaffler gets promoted.

If they aren’t already aware of your aspirations, explain them. Not in an “I want this” or “I am due this” - for me personally there is no automatic right to more senior roles based on tenure - it’s all down to ability/desire/effort/alignment with company values/usually some luck.

Explain that you have a strong aspiration to be a director - nothing wrong with that - but when inevitably they ask “why” , ensure you can describe what attributes / skills / expwrience you have that you feel would make you a candidate. They might ask you what you would change or do differently if you did have that role. What would your vision be for the team? How could that benefit the company? They won’t want someone without ideas on how to progress things. Ask if they think your aspirations are realistic, and if not - where do they see gaps, and is there any way they can they help you to close those gaps? Explain that you feel very loyal to the company, but you don’t want to waste your career dreaming about something that might not be a reality for you there. Making sure it doesn’t come across as a threat, explain that you have been reflecting and considering what options you might have for your next challenge, and whether opportunities within your current company are likely to align with your aspirations.

All of the above is just to promote open dialogue. Different leaders want very different things. Some value internal knowledge. Some value experience you can bring from outside the company. Some got there by hard work. Some got there by spaffling. Some tend to promote others like them. Some actively promote people with different approaches and skill sets.

Cards on the table, regardless of the outcome be thankful for the feedback/insights/conversation, as whatever way that convinces you to go - it’s been useful.

[Aml1987]

Thanks all, some good points to think about.

The other job would certainly give a better life/work balance in terms of it is home based, and unlikely to be getting hassled out of hours.

It is a small company with very little structure towards appraisals and development plans etc. I report to the production director now (whose role I am supposed to be taking eventually) and he is well aware that i am unhappy about the situation but kind of said it is what it is.

Another factor I hadn’t mentioned was that the current owner is old and wants out, the plan was a management buy out but 2 of the current directors have said they are not interested so this may have been a factor in his promotion but don’t know for sure, and definitely not something I am in a position to do if that was behind it

so ultimately the salary increase to director wouldn’t be life changing and the fact that I am a manager now and the new role would put me at the bottom of a new ladder but starting on very similar money to now means that in the long run if I can progress well then financially it would be the smart choice, but there is more to life than money!

Ultimately as Dinny mentioned if I handed my notice in I’m pretty sure they would offer me the role to stay, which I would be reluctant to accept as I don’t want to appear to be one of them people who threaten to leave with no real intention of doing so.

More beer tonight and see if I can come to a decision!

[unzippy]

There is really very little others can do to advise here.

But don't take Beany;s advice...

HTH

[Beany]

Burn the building to the ground