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Stripping a poorly S2000 engine

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:57 am
by dan
No my car hasn't blown up before anyone asks.

I offered to help a guy on the S2k forum when he needed a new engine for his car, apparently his was making some disturbing noises and despite his efforts to rectify them by fitting an aftermarket 'uprated' chain tensioner it still wasn't fixed. It baffles me the number of people out there that think a new oil pressure light switch will cure their oil surge issues or a new tensioner will fix their knackered chains....but anyway.

I paid 250 quid for this engine, which was an absolute bargain when you see 120 thousand mile runners going for £3000 and lower mileage engines fetching £5000. Its been sat in the workshop for a few months but i've been itching to strip it and see what was left inside, so the other day I did.

Turns out it had suffered from the fairly common issue of a piston picking up in the bore and dragging itself up and down the side in an attempt to weld itself to the block. They do this when they get old and when they get hot. The bores are fibre reinforced metal (FRM) and have no steel liner like a conventional engine would, so because the bores are alloy and the pistons are forged alloy they run extremely tight piston to bore clearance, less than a thou from new (whereas a conventional iron bore would be 3 to 5 thou). The only thing stopping the pistons from sticking to the bores is the coating on the sides, basically a form of hard anodising that is microns thick.

So the block is shagged, but thankfully we have the technology here to bore and hone FRM so it could be recovered and a set of oversize oem honda pistons installed, only the pistons cost the best part of two grand. Alternatively I could fit liners to the block and then run conventional forged pistons in it, which in turn gives you the option of going for a much bigger bore. The pistons are much cheaper but the liners cost about a grand.

The good news is the rest of the engine is absolutely mint. The previous owner claimed to have put most of the miles on this engine by motorway commuting and had barely ever had it in vtec. The wear on the valvetrain absolutely backs this up, i've never seen an engine like it. The crank is also absolutely mint and the oil pump looks better than a lot of new ones i've seen. I was about to throw it in the scrap bin when I decided to open it up and have a look, there's not a single mark on it anywhere.

Now I just have to decide what to do with it.


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Re: Stripping a poorly S2000 engine

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:16 am
by Rich B
Is there any realistic chance of a decent 2nd hand block turning up for sale? Or are they the most likely thing to have issues on any for sale.

Re: Stripping a poorly S2000 engine

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:27 am
by dan
Not really no, in any case you can't put new rings down worn bores so unless you bought a complete bottom end i'd be no better off that I am now, and i'm not into bodging two halves of random engines back together. If and when I rebuild it it'll be done proper like.

Re: Stripping a poorly S2000 engine

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:33 am
by duncs500
Interesting read! Guessing if you decide not to rebuild it you could make a tidy profit from stripping and selling parts?

Re: Stripping a poorly S2000 engine

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:43 am
by Jobbo
dan wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:57 am thankfully we have the technology here to bore and hone FRM
I'm impressed - I didn't think these sort of non-liner blocks could ever be restored with the factory bore coatings. Although it's clearly not the cost-effective way to go.

How different is the S2000 engine to the (presumably) Civic Type R based engines you normally build?

Re: Stripping a poorly S2000 engine

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:55 am
by V8Granite
I think it was from the 2 stroke world where they ended up being able to re-do the aluminium blocks, Alusil etc so it’s not a surprise these can be done too, there are quite a few carry overs from the large scale print industry that has repaired engines with the technology they developed.

It’s the same in all sizes and type of engines, all suffer with bore scuffing in one way or another. Considering it’s a relatively cheap mass produced engine it amazes me that they have as few issues as they do, amazing engineering.

I still remember seeing a K18, DC2 type R engine, and comparing it to my 1.9 Peugeot and wondering how mine even ran :lol:

Dave!

Re: Stripping a poorly S2000 engine

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:11 am
by dan
Jobbo wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:43 am
How different is the S2000 engine to the (presumably) Civic Type R based engines you normally build?
Well in many ways they're a superior engine, apart from the fact they don't have variable cam timing like the K20. The cams are gear driven and have a really neat spring loaded mechanism to take up the backlash in the gears and make them run silently. The pistons are forged and ignoring the issue above, the FRM block means its lighter and lower friction than cast iron linered alloy blocks. The valves are bigger, the bore is bigger but the stroke shorter, giving roughly the same capacity (I think they're 1999 vs 1998 for the k20) but they breathe better hence 120hp per litre.

Re: Stripping a poorly S2000 engine

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:12 am
by dan
V8Granite wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:55 am

I still remember seeing a K18, DC2 type R engine, and comparing it to my 1.9 Peugeot and wondering how mine even ran :lol:

Dave!
B18....but yes, honda engines of that era appear to be light years ahead of the competition. The B series castings especially are absolutely lovely.

Re: Stripping a poorly S2000 engine

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:37 am
by Jimmy Choo
dan wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:57 am They do this when they get old and when they get hot.
Interesting read. What's the root cause of it? Oil issues?

Re: Stripping a poorly S2000 engine

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:05 pm
by dan
Could be a number of reasons, this engine has 130 odd thousand miles on it and as Dave said all engines wear the bores like this, so it could purely be that the coating wore off sufficiently that the material underneath starting to rub on the bores.

With the clearance being so tight, if they overheat the the pistons will pick up in the bores too. Likewise, its very popular to boost F20's and most of them die this way too.

Re: Stripping a poorly S2000 engine

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:19 pm
by Coaster1
Good stuff Dan.

Love my B18, coming up 140k miles now and still smooth as silk. Shame about the rest of the car though i.e. bodywork / rust

Re: Stripping a poorly S2000 engine

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:24 pm
by duncs500
Will that fit in my Elise for nice price? :lol:

Re: Stripping a poorly S2000 engine

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:50 pm
by Jimmy Choo
duncs500 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:24 pm Will that fit in my Elise for nice price? :lol:
Nice for Dan or for you?

Re: Stripping a poorly S2000 engine

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:58 pm
by duncs500
Jimmy Choo wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:50 pm
duncs500 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:24 pm Will that fit in my Elise for nice price? :lol:
Nice for Dan or for you?
Me of course. ;)

Although in truth even a nice price would be too much for me unless he does finance! :-D

Re: Stripping a poorly S2000 engine

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:20 pm
by dan
the short answer is NO.

The longer answer is you don't want one of these anyway, they don't mate up to a k20 gearbox so you end up putting a PG1 on them which is dog shit. You're far better off with a k20. I'm booked up until spring 22 anyway so you've got time to save :D

Re: Stripping a poorly S2000 engine

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:23 pm
by duncs500
dan wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:20 pm the short answer is NO.

The longer answer is you don't want one of these anyway, they don't mate up to a k20 gearbox so you end up putting a PG1 on them which is dog shit. You're far better off with a k20. I'm booked up until spring 22 anyway so you've got time to save :D
8-)

I'm not surprised at that, you'll probably be "by invitation only" by the time I can afford it. :cry:

Re: Stripping a poorly S2000 engine

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:23 pm
by duncs500
Does that waiting time include suspension refurbs or just engine swaps?

Re: Stripping a poorly S2000 engine

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:35 pm
by dan
No thats project builds, i've budgeted time to fit smaller jobs in between.

Re: Stripping a poorly S2000 engine

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:49 pm
by duncs500
dan wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:35 pm No thats project builds, i've budgeted time to fit smaller jobs in between.
Ah good. :)