V8Granite wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 6:35 pm
I know there is a lot of “you wouldn’t understand” but I think the statement that if you have to PCP it then you can’t really afford it will come back. I really hope it brings back a car being more than a 3 yearly purchase and be more long term.
I never thought of the white goods argument Harry mentions with the electric car before and it lasting longer but hopefully that proves to be true.
Dave!
you have a mortgage and you’re ok with that, it’s the same with cars for many people.
The big difference is cars (In general) depreciate, so whether you buy them outright and lose the chunk at the end or pay monthly and spread it out, you’re still paying out at some point.
V8Granite wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 6:35 pm
I know there is a lot of “you wouldn’t understand” but I think the statement that if you have to PCP it then you can’t really afford it will come back. I really hope it brings back a car being more than a 3 yearly purchase and be more long term.
I never thought of the white goods argument Harry mentions with the electric car before and it lasting longer but hopefully that proves to be true.
Dave!
you have a mortgage and you’re ok with that, it’s the same with cars for many people.
The big difference is cars (In general) depreciate, so whether you buy them outright and lose the chunk at the end or pay monthly and spread it out, you’re still paying out at some point.
The part I struggle with is that 20 years ago when loans were easy to get, friends had a 110% mortgage for example at 18, then no-one my age really had new cars. Now it seems much more common and surely those new items need paying for. I can’t get my head around how all the new stuff is being paid for (not on a personal level, just in general) without a lot of value being lost by someone whether it be the manufacturers or the people paying out.
I read that manufacturers have inflated prices to push people into a buy monthly way of doing things which makes sense but has it really been done like that ?
Dave!
Re: Harry’s Garage
Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 9:11 am
by Foz
All about the monthlies, pretty much, the bag car manufacturers rely on huge volumes and have effectively become finance providers who happen to have a sideline selling cars, look at the crazy APR's on new vs approved used cars its "cheaper" to buy new..
V8Granite wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 6:35 pm
I know there is a lot of “you wouldn’t understand” but I think the statement that if you have to PCP it then you can’t really afford it will come back. I really hope it brings back a car being more than a 3 yearly purchase and be more long term.
I never thought of the white goods argument Harry mentions with the electric car before and it lasting longer but hopefully that proves to be true.
Dave!
you have a mortgage and you’re ok with that, it’s the same with cars for many people.
The big difference is cars (In general) depreciate, so whether you buy them outright and lose the chunk at the end or pay monthly and spread it out, you’re still paying out at some point.
The part I struggle with is that 20 years ago when loans were easy to get, friends had a 110% mortgage for example at 18, then no-one my age really had new cars. Now it seems much more common and surely those new items need paying for. I can’t get my head around how all the new stuff is being paid for (not on a personal level, just in general) without a lot of value being lost by someone whether it be the manufacturers or the people paying out.
I read that manufacturers have inflated prices to push people into a buy monthly way of doing things which makes sense but has it really been done like that ?
Dave!
Does it really matter? If you know the monthly cost, who cares what the list price is.
I totally get the appeal of owning something outright, I’ve paid cash for all my cars for the last 15 years before the Golf, but is there really any benefit to having £30k sat on the driveway depreciating by a not insignificant amount each month and pretending that it’s not. Couple that with the long list of upkeep from your fleet Post yesterday and many will just want a standard monthly cost and no issues.
Re: Harry’s Garage
Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 10:43 am
by V8Granite
Not at all, what people spend their money on is their business but the value of things now must be far far higher than 20 years ago.
If you took the average vehicle price in your town 20 years ago compared to today (adjusted for inflation) then surely it must be massively higher.
I think I’m struggling with where the value has gone, as someone has to be absorbing it all and that either means we all earn much more now compared to before or that cars themselves are actually far cheaper ?
Dave!
Re: Harry’s Garage
Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 12:03 pm
by Nathan
V8Granite wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 10:43 am
... or that cars themselves are actually far cheaper ?
Dave!
I often think about how the W124 E Class was £30k in 1993 and the same today with discounts
Re: Harry’s Garage
Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 12:05 pm
by Mito Man
911s get cheaper don’t they?
Re: Harry’s Garage
Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 12:24 pm
by Carlos
Interest rates being near zero since 2009 is also a factor and cars needing expensive repairs at 5-7yr old nowadays is not uncommon.
My sister was exactly the same 20 years ago. Buy new car at £9k keep it 6yrs, spend £2k on repairs outside of warranty and sell it for £2k when worried about the cambelt snapping and no longer feels the vehicle is reliable.
That is the pattern for many which to you makes sense.
Now she leases a car for 2 years for £150pm, never puts tyres on them, never taxes them and always has a new reliable warranted car.
That makes sense to me.
Re: Harry’s Garage
Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 1:07 pm
by mik
Ooh - an award.
As an Automotive Influencer. Ah.
Re: Harry’s Garage
Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 1:14 pm
by Beany
"You're an influencer, Harry"
Re: Harry’s Garage
Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 2:37 pm
by V8Granite
Carlos wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 12:24 pm
Interest rates being near zero since 2009 is also a factor and cars needing expensive repairs at 5-7yr old nowadays is not uncommon.
My sister was exactly the same 20 years ago. Buy new car at £9k keep it 6yrs, spend £2k on repairs outside of warranty and sell it for £2k when worried about the cambelt snapping and no longer feels the vehicle is reliable.
That is the pattern for many which to you makes sense.
Now she leases a car for 2 years for £150pm, never puts tyres on them, never taxes them and always has a new reliable warranted car.
That makes sense to me.
That’s not what I’m unclear about, that’s just justifying how they spend their money which makes absolute sense to them.
I mean now we have a far greater amount of newer cars which are then being de-valued and put into rotation.
Maybe what Nath says is the reason, they are simply far cheaper.
They are also massively more reliable at high miles. I can vividly remember lots of people working on their cars 30 years ago as we all rode about on our bikes.
Dave, being a bit dim!
Re: Harry’s Garage
Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 2:51 pm
by RobYob
[Robbie Coltrane]
Beany wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 1:14 pm
"You're an influencer, Harry"
Got around to watching this, it is good but there's one error at around 22:45 in my opinion. Weight is not as relevant a point for EV fuel consumption as Harry makes out. Tyre rolling resistance is dependant on mass and also increases marginally with vehicle speed, but rolling resistance does not increase exponentially like aerodynamic drag. Aero drag generally uses the majority of energy above 50mph and at 70mph may be >90% of energy used.
Weight is currently a problem for vehicle manufacturers as it goes into the WLTP calculation, however for an EV this is irrelevant and unless regulation is changed EV mass is not coming down any time soon, and for most applications doesn't really need to.
Got around to watching this, it is good but there's one error at around 22:45 in my opinion. Weight is not as relevant a point for EV fuel consumption as Harry makes out. Tyre rolling resistance is dependant on mass and also increases marginally with vehicle speed, but rolling resistance does not increase exponentially like aerodynamic drag. Aero drag generally uses the majority of energy above 50mph and at 70mph may be >90% of energy used.
Weight is currently a problem for vehicle manufacturers as it goes into the WLTP calculation, however for an EV this is irrelevant and unless regulation is changed EV mass is not coming down any time soon, and for most applications doesn't really need to.
More weight, bigger tyre, more rolling resistance no ?
RobYob wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 8:33 am
Weight is not as relevant a point for EV fuel consumption as Harry makes out. Tyre rolling resistance is dependant on mass and also increases marginally with vehicle speed, but rolling resistance does not increase exponentially like aerodynamic drag. Aero drag generally uses the majority of energy above 50mph and at 70mph may be >90% of energy used.
More weight, bigger tyre, more rolling resistance no ?
Dave!
Yes, but not very much at all.
Re: Harry’s Garage
Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 9:34 am
by dan
But given that electric cars are no good for cruising at 70mph and most of their journeys are stop start around town stuff then weight is one of the biggest issues isn't it. Trying to accelerate a 3 tonne piece of shit from a stand still is a fair bit harder than something half the weight.
Re: Harry’s Garage
Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 9:45 am
by RobYob
dan wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 9:34 am
But given that electric cars are no good for cruising at 70mph and most of their journeys are stop start around town stuff then weight is one of the biggest issues isn't it. Trying to accelerate a 3 tonne piece of shit from a stand still is a fair bit harder than something half the weight.
One thing EVs don't lack is torque, the awful eGolf was quicker to 30mph than a GTi a couple of years ago and all that energy used getting three tonnes up to speed is 95% recoverable on regen. It's the "lost" energy of rolling resistance and aero drag that count for range and of those only Aero is really relevant for passenger vehicles (maybe even for HGVs but I've never calculated the rolling resistance of one).
Re: Harry’s Garage
Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 9:58 am
by Mito Man
Just a quick look but purpose made EVs don’t see any heavier than the competition. Even a 2.5 tonne model X is in the same ballpoint as a large SUV.
The only heavier stuff seem to be the cars which have a compromised chassis so they can be both conventional and EV like the Kona.
Re: Harry’s Garage
Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 10:53 am
by RobYob
Mito Man wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 9:58 am
Just a quick look but purpose made EVs don’t see any heavier than the competition. Even a 2.5 tonne model X is in the same ballpoint as a large SUV.
The only heavier stuff seem to be the cars which have a compromised chassis so they can be both conventional and EV like the Kona.
When comparing high power AWD models the difference is small, for low power 2WD it's still huge though. Easiest comparison is Golf to an eGolf, Tesla3, or Leaf, the EVs are all 200-300kg more. That is the current sports EV connundrum, the battery needs to be big as it's both the fuel tank and the fuel "pump". Once you have that big battery adding power with extra motors and inverters is comparatively little extra mass.
Re: Harry’s Garage
Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 4:58 pm
by Jobbo
RobYob wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 9:45 am
all that energy used getting three tonnes up to speed is 95% recoverable on regen
Is it as much as that? Wow. So assuming you don't slam on the brakes and just use regen to slow down, your round town range is possibly even better than your motorway range in a Model S?
[Not singling out the Model S over any other electric car, it's just the one I was thinking about getting]
