OV9

ZedLeg wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:59 pm He wants to wrestle men though, it’s the rules that won’t let him.

Then I don't disagree that those rules are wrong (or more accurately were formulated at a time when this did not need to be provided for and are outdated).

Broccers wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:59 pm Wow this openned a can of worms.

A mate of mine is now a woman. I still call him Mike as can't change my way of thinking. Had his bits chopped in Thailand to form a vag. Unfortunately it went wrong and he pooed out of his new fanny so had to go back for a rectification.

I'm sure he goes to the ladies.

You’re like a caricature of the worst guy broccers.

ZedLeg wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:46 pm

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:57 am I've got better shit to be getting on with than this, but here's a start - top result from 1st Google

I wasn’t disputing that.

The hormones trans women take during transition reduce muscle development and bone density and if they want to compete in high level sport they have their hormone levels monitored.

My question still stands that if trans women generally have an advantage over bio women why isn’t high level sport dominated by trans women?

Firstly, that article states quite clearly how/why the advantage remains, and it isn't due to hormones but the number of cell nuclei within the muscle that remain long after the testosterone has been present.

As I already suggested - you have to compare (adam's) apples. Totally depends on the relative performance of the athlete prior to transitioning I'd imagine. If as a male you are better than all of the best females in your sport, then you'd imagine that would remain if they transitioned. However, at what relative level do all of these trans-women start at prior to transition, when compared to top female athletes in their field?

And even then, the proportion that might be better than the female field that would want to transition is probalby fecking tiny.

Broccers wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:59 pm Wow this openned a can of worms.

A mate of mine is now a woman. I still call him Mike as can't change my way of thinking. Had his bits chopped in Thailand to form a vag. Unfortunately it went wrong and he pooed out of his new fanny so had to go back for a rectification.

I'm sure he goes to the ladies.

Really?!

There’s no fair Set of rules though. It’s either unfair on the transgender person or unfair on the rest.

There may be the odd case like this wrestler where the rest of the field all agree it’s ok, but in general someone will be disadvantaged.

Plus there’s absolutely no reason why someone who was born a man can’t carry on competing as a man.

It’s all just odd cases though.

The whole point of transitioning is recognising the person as the gender they’re transitioning to.

To exclude them from one aspect of their life because it might be unfair when there’s no way to say for certain doesn’t make sense.

..

As everyone has pointed out while complaining about how much of a problem it is, the number of people is vanishingly small so the chances of reliably having someone to compete against is also small.

Also as I said the whole point of transitioning is to be recognised as the gender you’re transitioning to, not the gender you are and the gender you were.

ZedLeg wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:24 pm It’s all just odd cases though.

The whole point of transitioning is recognising the person as the gender they’re transitioning to.

To exclude them from one aspect of their life because it might be unfair when there’s no way to say for certain doesn’t make sense.

then they should use the wrestler as the answer. If all of your competitors are cool with competing against you, then go ahead. That’s the only fair route for the competitors.

That wouldn’t work. If a competitor didn’t want to compete against a trans person because they’re transphobic, who’s side do you take?

There are already rules that work. The only reason this has been such a big story recently is because there’s been a larger anti trans movement that’s been spreading scare stories and lies.

ZedLeg wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:58 pm That wouldn’t work. If a competitor didn’t want to compete against a trans person because they’re transphobic, who’s side do you take?

its not about being transphobic, it’s about whether or not there’s deemed to be an advantage. It’s unfair to the other competitor if there is.

As I said, life’s not fair, but if a trans person isn’t deemed eligible for their new gender, then they can still compete as their birth one. Their competitors don’t have another option.

I'm saying what if someone is transphobic and that's their reason for not wanting to compete.

It's not as simple saying they can compete as their old gender. As far as a trans person is concerned they've always been their post transition gender. The medical process is recognising that.

To me it's more logical to say that a trans person can compete as the gender they've transitioned to than to add a lot of caveats and opinion to the decision

Better to upset one person than an entire field I'd suggest. Ultimately, if there is an advantage for trans-females, then it's as much of an unnatural advantage over the rest of their competitors as someone taking steroids.

There is no way to level the field as far as I can see it without simply not permitting it at all. Semenya's case is arguably more tragic imo, as she is the way she is naturally. Not sure what the correct course is in her case, but I'm sure it's not what has happened to date.

ZedLeg wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:13 pmIt's not as simple saying they can compete as their old gender.

Yes it is.

It's attitudes like Zed's that discourage winners anyway just in case someone feels bad.

What attitude is that broccers?

I watched a uks strongest woman on YouTube a while ago and would have done pretty well, with a year of training I could have popped on a wig, chucked some spuds under my top and be the strongest woman in the uk. The glory

It’s absolutely ridiculous that any sport requiring you to be male or female allows a transgender to compete. It’s dumping all over people who worked hard to be as good as they are.

I’m sure that when men transition to women they get the benefit of testosterone in early life and then the benefit of estrogen in later life for bone density. It’s no different than being on steroids and then competing imo.

Dave!

ZedLeg wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:26 pm What attitude is that broccers?

The think of the few not the many. The put everyone and everything on the same level.

If someone changes gender then they are different physically and should enter events for people like them. In it's basic form why do we have separate sports for men and women? Namby pamby bollocks.

Trying to bring more fairness to the world is thinking about the many .

It’s why I’ve never really got the whole life’s not fair thing. If something’s not fair we should be working to improve it.

But you've made it fair for a minority and then unfair for the majority!

As the 'mercuns would say, its an "ass-backwards" way of thinking.