OV9

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2021 3:47 pm**

Also I imagine there'll be swathes of people now intelligible for a booster till January anyway as they've picked up Covid. I know several in that position.

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2021 4:00 pm**

Simon wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:11 pm More talk of impending restrictions, either before or after Christmas.

Apart from any retail/hospitality that's closed that I obviously won't be able to go into anyway, I won't be abiding by any new rules restricting my social contact. Apart from the lack of moral authority the government now has on the issue, it remains fact that lockdowns are about 'protecting the NHS', but it's still mostly the unvaxed who end up in hospital. So why should I have my freedoms restricted because some people won't protect themselves?

We need a lockdown of the unvaccinated. If you aren't vaxxed then no access to unnecessary retail, hospitality, no indoor mixing etc. Random spot checks and strict penalties on establishments that don't enforce the passports.

Screw the unvaxxed and let the rest of society carry on as normal.

Because the unvaccinated that end up in hospital means that other treatments for other people have to be postponed or cancelled. So the impact is causes issues for everyone.

The government's lack of moral authority does not mean we should abandon ours. If restricting social interaction is the advice of the medical experts, then I think that's what we need to do.

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2021 4:13 pm**

Because no medical expert will ever say something so divisive as 'lockdown the unvaccinated', but because it's mostly them that will end up in hospital that's exactly what needs to happen. It may not be a nice thing to hear but it's true. And society can't keep stopping as a whole for those that won't do what is necessary.

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2021 4:18 pm**

I'm not disagreeing with special measures for the unvaccinated, but until that happens, we all have to bear their burden. Not fair or reasonable, but we need to protect and help those that have other medical issues.

Posted: **Sun Dec 19, 2021 4:29 pm**

The only way to protect those with medical issues is to lockdown unvaxxed people. No use if said person with medical issues can’t go to hospital because unvaxxed pricks are filling capacity.

Posted: **Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:11 am**

I've not seen the stats that show it's mainly unvaccinated in hospital?

Posted: **Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:43 am**

Rich B wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:11 am I've not seen the stats that show it's mainly unvaccinated in hospital?

Doesn't seem to be true: https://fullfact.org/health/health-guar ... ed-deaths/

Posted: **Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:46 am**

With Germany introducing quarantine for UK Arrivals, my skiing trip at the end of January is now off.

Posted: **Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:04 am**

Jobbo wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:43 am
Rich B wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:11 am I've not seen the stats that show it's mainly unvaccinated in hospital?
Doesn't seem to be true: https://fullfact.org/health/health-guar ... ed-deaths/

the assumption that is is only the unvaccinated getting it seems to be the base for a lot of anger on here.

Posted: **Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:24 am**

For me the key issue is that they're needlessly occupying a hospital bed when they most likely wouldn't need to of they'd been vaccinated. The knock on effect is an avoidable increase in pressure on the NHS.

Posted: **Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:39 am**

DeskJockey wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:24 am For me the key issue is that they're needlessly occupying a hospital bed when they most likely wouldn't need to of they'd been vaccinated. The knock on effect is an avoidable increase in pressure on the NHS.

is there info showing that to be the case though? If the same proportion are in hospital as are vaccinated/ unvaccinated then they're not causing any greater issue.

I'm getting my booster today, so I'm happy with it, but there seems to be some real heightened hatred on here to people who have chosen not to. I'm just trying to understand what actual studies it's based on - because talking about withholding treatment and the like is not a particularly "nice" thing to talk about.

Posted: **Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:00 am**

Rich B wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:04 am
Jobbo wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:43 am
Rich B wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:11 am I've not seen the stats that show it's mainly unvaccinated in hospital?
Doesn't seem to be true: https://fullfact.org/health/health-guar ... ed-deaths/
the assumption that is is only the unvaccinated getting it seems to be the base for a lot of anger on here.

From lower down in the link.. you are 32 times more likely to die unvaccinated vs fully vaccinated. It’s not unreasonable to suggest that people who die probably needed a lot more care than a person who is released after a few days of palliative care. Ofcourse, if you survive after a few days in hospital, then you’ve occupied a bed but won’t be included in the mortality figures.

Also, I would suggest that the reason there are more vaccinated in hospital is because there are a lot more people vaccinated..

Posted: **Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:14 am**

Rich B wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:39 am
DeskJockey wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:24 am For me the key issue is that they're needlessly occupying a hospital bed when they most likely wouldn't need to of they'd been vaccinated. The knock on effect is an avoidable increase in pressure on the NHS.
is there info showing that to be the case though? If the same proportion are in hospital as are vaccinated/ unvaccinated then they're not causing any greater issue.

I'm getting my booster today, so I'm happy with it, but there seems to be some real heightened hatred on here to people who have chosen not to. I'm just trying to understand what actual studies it's based on - because talking about withholding treatment and the like is not a particularly "nice" thing to talk about.

From what I've read/seen/heard from medics the issue is that Covid protocol require isolation wards, so unvaccinated people take up not just a bed, but potentially the space from several others. And, they need more care because they're more ill. Which, when it is avoidable is rather wasteful. The lack of flexibility that creates then has further impact on other treatments.

Posted: **Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:24 am**

IanF wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:00 am
Rich B wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:04 am
Jobbo wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:43 am

Doesn't seem to be true: https://fullfact.org/health/health-guar ... ed-deaths/
the assumption that is is only the unvaccinated getting it seems to be the base for a lot of anger on here.
From lower down in the link.. you are 32 times more likely to die unvaccinated vs fully vaccinated. It’s not unreasonable to suggest that people who die probably needed a lot more care than a person who is released after a few days of palliative care. Ofcourse, if you survive after a few days in hospital, then you’ve occupied a bed but won’t be included in the mortality figures.

Also, I would suggest that the reason there are more vaccinated in hospital is because there are a lot more people vaccinated..

last sentence - absolutely - hence I was referring to proportion.

With the "32 times" bit, that time line is quite interesting- starting jan 2021 - not a lot of people had been vaccinated back then - even the vulnerable, and that was slap bang in the biggest wave too. It would be interesting to see more recent data.

I'm not waving any anti-vaccinated flag btw - just interested to see if the hatred on here from otherwise normal people is justified.

Posted: **Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:06 pm**

Unvaccinated people make up about 10-15% of the adult population, but are unreasonably represented by their numbers in hospital. If they were vaxxed they'd be less likely to be in hospital. You can have more vaxxed than unvaxxed in hostpital, but unvaxxed still being a major issue because the unvaccinated group have a higher % in hospital then the vaxxinated group. Does that make sense?

Basically it's irrelevant if there are more vaxxed than unvaxxed in hospital because unvaxed are overreprestented. Also unvaxxed hugely more likely to be in ICU etc, compared to general admission.

Posted: **Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:22 pm**

Simon wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:06 pm Unvaccinated people make up about 10-15% of the adult population, but are unreasonably represented by their numbers in hospital.

what's the latest figures on this - there's lots of debunked claims flying around about silly 80-90% of hospitalisations, but is it actually the case now?

Posted: **Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:32 pm**

I saw an interview with a nurse on the news a couple of days ago (can’t remember the programme or the hospital) and she was frustrated to the point of tears at how the vast majority of the people they were treating were unvaccinated.

Posted: **Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:42 pm**

Reading up, there's lots of misrepresenting figures - lots of "I heard..." and "vast majority" and "80% of certain age groups over certain time periods".... Let's find out!

70% of people are fully (2 shots) vaccinated in the U.K. (children are counted in the hospital admissions, so need to be in this too).
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations

It's estimated that 35% hospitalised are unvaccinated.
https://fullfact.org/health/economist-v ... on-status/

So that's only a 5% shift. Certainly not vast or a particular majority.

However, I've yet to find current info on the severity. So any links would be good.

Posted: **Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:44 pm**

Rich B wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:22 pm
Simon wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:06 pm Unvaccinated people make up about 10-15% of the adult population, but are unreasonably represented by their numbers in hospital.
what's the latest figures on this - there's lots of debunked claims flying around about silly 80-90% of hospitalisations, but is it actually the case now?

I'm trying to find the definitive figures, but a matron at Kings says the unvaxxed make up 80-90% of critical care beds in that hospital. <note this isn't the same as just admitted to hospital>

Posted: **Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:49 pm**

Simon wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:44 pm
Rich B wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:22 pm
Simon wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:06 pm Unvaccinated people make up about 10-15% of the adult population, but are unreasonably represented by their numbers in hospital.
what's the latest figures on this - there's lots of debunked claims flying around about silly 80-90% of hospitalisations, but is it actually the case now?
I'm trying to find the definitive figures, but a matron at Kings says the unvaxxed make up 80-90% of critical care beds in that hospital. <note this isn't the same as just admitted to hospital>

yep, it may well be the case in that hospital. I wonder if there's the data for all hospitals?

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