OV9

But you’ll go the other way if you remove the option to get rid of people that don’t live up to their interview promises though. Companies will simply demand more from the interview process, and candidates will have to spend far more of their own free time and effort to prove themselves before they get the job.

Makes sense, everything slides into shit because no one wants to take responsibility.

ZedLeg wrote: Thu Oct 24, 2024 9:32 am Makes sense, everything slides into shit because no one wants to take responsibility.

Not sure how this comment lines up?

Essentially, if you remove the ability to get rid of people who have essentially lied at the interview process (by presenting themselves as something they don’t end up being), then you are inevitably going to force the interview process to become massively more stringent - and that will come at the candidates cost/inconvenience, not the employers.

Isn’t not being able to lay off staff a thing in Japan?
I’m not sure if it’s cultural or down to their labour laws, but I remember reading some weird stories. Your colleagues essentially shun you and you don’t get given anything to do until it’s so awkward you ask to quit yourself.
Would be hilarious if someone is socially awkward enough that they don’t understand and remain working there forever

ZedLeg wrote: Thu Oct 24, 2024 9:32 am Makes sense, everything slides into shit because no one wants to take responsibility.

The only way to make good hiring decisions is by working with the candidate for an extended period of time - i.e. a probation period. There's plenty of people out there who can talk the talk in an interview, they can provide evidence of high performance, perfect previous experience, yet turn out to be absolutely awful workers in the long term. And managing a bad apple in a team is utterly soul destroying.

I’ve managed teams and hired before.

I’ve never hired someone so bad I had to let them go during the probation period. Maybe I’ve just been lucky.

There could be a job/sector specific variances as well. I've only dipped my toe into hiring, specifically hiring social media managers, videographers, editors etc for clients and it's a fucking bin fire. There's usually over 1,000 applications for a role, predominantly from people who want a glamourous career in social media yet have almost no experience, an MA in Digital Marketing and so they think they're a c-suite level social media strategist, even though they've never got more than 200 views on any of their own content. So far, the best hires are the ones with the least qualifications, just to complicate matters. We recently hired an 18 year old school drop-out who's absolutely smashing it compared to the pervious 27 year old* editor and videographer with a degree in filmmaking.


[* Also subtly racist - which isn't great in a south asian owned business.]

There is a pretty high level of churn in law so we are generally always recruiting associates. It isn't all that often that someone doesn't pass probation or has it extended but it has happened. Our expectations of performance are high though, as you would expect.

Mito Man wrote: Thu Oct 24, 2024 10:07 am Isn’t not being able to lay off staff a thing in Japan?
I’m not sure if it’s cultural or down to their labour laws, but I remember reading some weird stories. Your colleagues essentially shun you and you don’t get given anything to do until it’s so awkward you ask to quit yourself.
Would be hilarious if someone is socially awkward enough that they don’t understand and remain working there forever

I was watching a reel last night where a guy said he slept in and was an hour late to work and his colleagues didn't speak to him for the rest of the day plus he got a warning from his supervisor that day (I think this was the first time it had ever happened). Sounds unpleasant.

A friend of mine runs corporate training on international business practices and it's amazing the subtle but important differences between different nationalities and cultures. Everyone know the obvious ones (Accept a business card with two hands in Japan - although they reckon this isn't necessarily the norm now) but some of the others are very interesting.

In Italy, you MUST be at your desk by 09:00 - but then most will go off for coffee for 30 minutes or so. If you arrive at 9:10, skip the coffee and get straight to work, you're late. And you also MUST stay to your end of the day, even if you're just twiddling your thumbs or your seen as workshy...

However, in Germany if you've completed your work ahead of schedule and everything is order and you have permission to leave early, you're seen as super efficient and in control.

In Korea, you cannot and must not leave before your boss. If they're sitting there until 21:00 working on a document, then so are you etc.

Most of his clients are Americans as you can imagine...

I find these things fascinating, like in America how you're expected to never have a holiday

Interviews - even multi-round, multi-interviewer processes, are only really an indicator of capability/behaviour/partnering/yada-yada. Some people are great at them - like some people are great at exams. Similarly, some people don't interview well, but would actually be great. You see this when you have internal candidates in the pool - but they don't manage to successfully convey the abilities/values/behaviours that you know they possess / demonstrate in the normal work environment.

I've never personally used the probationary period to get rid of someone, but early in my career a guy was brought in to do the same role as me. Very confident and apparently friendly, he was quickly in regular conflict with a high percentage of colleagues and stakeholders. He'd been there about a three weeks, when going home one night he was attacked exiting his car and was then (perfectly justifiably) off on sick leave for a head injury. His absence kept being extended via his doc however for headaches he was suffering, which caused people to have to swap shift patterns and/or work extra hours to ensure adequate business cover. He returned after approx 9 weeks absence. A few days after coming back however, he boldly showed some colleagues the pictures of him doing a bunjee jump about 5 weeks into his absence. He was let go before the end of his probationary period.

dinny_g wrote: Thu Oct 24, 2024 12:48 pm

In Italy, you MUST be at your desk by 09:00 - but then most will go off for coffee for 30 minutes or so. If you arrive at 9:10, skip the coffee and get straight to work, you're late. And you also MUST stay to your end of the day, even if you're just twiddling your thumbs or your seen as workshy...

My new office runs like this, it’s a pain in the arse tbh. Before I’d built up some work I was just sitting reading for hours. We have to clock in and out too.

It’s all very old fashioned.

I have to say, I worked in Fiat's Mirafiori offices in Turin and the coffee from the inhouse cafe was amazing. They had a little cart that came round the office ever few hours too which was very civilised.

But 5 or 6 super strong espresso's daily played havoc with my sleeping. I took to Grappa to sort out.

I guess it depends on the business you’re in.

We’re in manufacturing and have to clock in/out for the fire roll call, but it also tracks your time. I have to work 8 hours so if I clock in at 9:05 I make sure I don’t clock out until at least 17:05. No one clock watches the minutes but I’m sure if I was consistently late someone would have a word.

Different if you’re on the factory floor where being late can affect production. More than 3 minutes past your start time and you lose 15mins pay - or you can have 15mins taken off any overtime you’ve worked.

Being an hour or so late would also give your co-workers a pass to take the piss out of you for the rest of the shift.

It’s a bit of a culture shock after 5 years of wfh

This reminds me, a few weeks ago I was stressed out and was in desperate need for a bag of postcrete. I check Wickes which is closest, closes 8PM. Pull up at 7.35PM and there's a guy locking the main doors. Tells me I can't go in, forklifts are restocking. Can't even get me a bag himself
Utter shambles when a big chain doesn't abide by their own opening hours.

On another topic I'm now seeing a load of tweets about Rachel Reeves CV not being very accurate. Perhaps the new legislation is arse covering for themselves first

i roll in when i’m ready, roll out when I'm done.

sometimes this works out well for me, not so well in others…

If I was allowed to do that I’d probably roll in around mid day and stay until 2am or something

Quality, not quantity...

I can do in 5 or 6 hours what it takes a mere mortal project manager 8 or 10