Bye Bye Sunak..

[V8Granite]

Also, some private schools breed hoards of utter utter cunts.

Dave!

[Sundayjumper]

We have some good state schools near us too, but obviously they are all massively over subscribed.

It’s the same everywhere I think. We’ve got Sandhurst School (state school) literally a couple of minutes’ walk from here which is… OK. Better than it used to be tbf. Then Edgebarrow (academy) that’s excellent but massively oversubscribed.

Then almost next door to Edgebarrow is Wellington College (private), moderately famous and £12k/term. I guess you need about £70k of “spare” salary per child to cover that. If you don’t, according to Rich, that means you don’t love your children.

[Rich B]

We have some good state schools near us too, but obviously they are all massively over subscribed.

It’s the same everywhere I think. We’ve got Sandhurst School (state school) literally a couple of minutes’ walk from here which is… OK. Better than it used to be tbf. Then Edgebarrow (academy) that’s excellent but massively oversubscribed.

Then almost next door to Edgebarrow is Wellington College (private), moderately famous and £12k/term. I guess you need about £70k of “spare” salary per child to cover that. If you don’t, according to Rich, that means you don’t love your children.

wow, that's only completely missing the point of what I said!

[dinny_g]

We moved into the catchment of the best school in this area with GCSE and A Level results consistently highest in the region. They offer a "Private School Level Education in a state school". It's really good - if a little stuffy and old fashioned (Top Button closed, Blazer worn at all times)

The next school over is a disaster area which is highest in the region in only one area - Knife incidents.

If I thought lamping 20% onto Private fees would do a lick of difference to this, I'd be all for it but it just won't... ever... The 20% will be used to create state schemes which create unnecessary jobs - Jobs that are at risk if Labour do not win the General Election after next.

T'was ever thus

[Sundayjumper]

wow, that's only completely missing the point of what I said!

That's not how this came across:

...the idea that you're concerned enough about your kids education to commit to spending £24k a year on it, but at £30k a year - fuck it, they'll be ok!

£24k, £30k, £36k, it's all the same right ?

[ZedLeg]

That’s just defeatism disguised as pragmatism Dinny.

Why bother doing anything if nothing ever changes?

[dinny_g]

You know my motto in life...


But seriously, if the ideas change, I'll get behind them but I'm too long in the tooth to believe any of it.

Still voting Labour this time out though...

[Sundayjumper]

Have you ever worked in or with local government or the Civil Service, Zed ? Easy to write it off as defeatism but it's true unfortunately.

I'm currently involved in a very large modernisation/efficiency improvement programme for MoD and the difficulty in getting anything done is astonishing. Which is ironically exactly why modernisation/efficiency improvement is needed so badly.

[Rich B]

wow, that's only completely missing the point of what I said!

That's not how this came across:

...the idea that you're concerned enough about your kids education to commit to spending £24k a year on it, but at £30k a year - fuck it, they'll be ok!

£24k, £36k, it's all the same right ?

I'll make an attempt to write it better then!

To me, for a "normal" person, committing £24k a year to your child's education is a HUGE commitment. It's bigger than my mortgage, etc... it's the biggest household bill by far.

So, to be even considering that amount you've got to be so entrenched in the idea that it's the only option for your child that you will pay that regardless of anything - because it's your largest bill and biggest priority.

To then say, an (up to) 15% rise COMPLETELY wipes it off your priority list is pretty unlikely imo.

[Nefarious]

Re. public school VAT.

I think it's worth considering quantum here before hand wringing too hard over the marginals who will be priced out of the market

The average cost of private education in the UK is just over £20k a year. VAT on that raises £4k per year per child
The average cost of state education is £7k per year.

So the tax raised from the vast majority of private pupils who stay in the private system more than pay for the additional places needed in the state system.

Even if 10% (60k) left the private sector, the revenue raised would pay for a theoretical 300k state places (assuming the revenue was re-invested in the education rather than pissed up the wall on some white elephant project)

[ZedLeg]

£24k is about 2/3 of the median salary, which gives an idea of how important private education is to the average person.

[Beany]

Boy, it's almost like fifty years of a desperate need to never raise headline primary taxation rates, to maintain votes makes a fucking mess of societies, isn't it?

[duncs500]

Re. public school VAT.

I think it's worth considering quantum here before hand wringing too hard over the marginals who will be priced out of the market

The average cost of private education in the UK is just over £20k a year. VAT on that raises £4k per year per child
The average cost of state education is £7k per year.

So the tax raised from the vast majority of private pupils who stay in the private system more than pay for the additional places needed in the state system.

Even if 10% (60k) left the private sector, the revenue raised would pay for a theoretical 300k state places (assuming the revenue was re-invested in the education rather than pissed up the wall on some white elephant project)

I think this bit says it all though unfortunately.

The extra capacity needed to cover the current demand (let alone any increase) in some areas would I imagine take a good 10 years. And that money is just going to get absorbed by whoever shouts the loudest (NHS probably), not ringfenced for education after perhaps a couple of token years.

[ZedLeg]

The NHS needs money too though, they've also been systemically underfunded over the last 20ish years and the Labour solution is more PFIs.

[duncs500]

I'm not particularly against the notion of the policy, we just need a better state education system first and foremost.

[ZedLeg]

It's the chicken and egg thing, although the money would be there if we weren't married to the idea of having a nuclear boondoggle we'll never use.

[dinny_g]

Re. public school VAT.

I think it's worth considering quantum here before hand wringing too hard over the marginals who will be priced out of the market

The average cost of private education in the UK is just over £20k a year. VAT on that raises £4k per year per child
The average cost of state education is £7k per year.

So the tax raised from the vast majority of private pupils who stay in the private system more than pay for the additional places needed in the state system.

Even if 10% (60k) left the private sector, the revenue raised would pay for a theoretical 300k state places (assuming the revenue was re-invested in the education rather than pissed up the wall on some white elephant project)

I’m nervous questioning you on this Nef because when it comes to your opinion, I generally see you as a cross between Yoda and God but isn’t that a little simplistic ?

Just about ever state school is fully subscribed so there would need to be Capital investment in either extending existing or building new schools to accommodate the new students. After this capital investment, then yeah, it would wash its face.

Then there is the regional variances – I’d guess London and the Home Counties would have the highest proportion of ex-private students needing a place so new schools could be a success but in other parts of the country, this isn’t likely to be the case so students would need to be absorbed into existing schools, increasing numbers and impacting all students.

[duncs500]

It's the chicken and egg thing, although the money would be there if we weren't married to the idea of having a nuclear boondoggle we'll never use.

As previous though, for me it's less about throwing more money at the problem and more about making our money go further. Education is one of the sectors for which I can't really comment on its efficiency, perhaps it's very well run! I would be amazed though.

[ZedLeg]

I’ve not looked into education but when I looked at the NHS the budget hadn’t kept up with inflation.

There are underfunding problems and as has already been said schools are selling assets like land to pay their bills, which can also have a detrimental impact as houses usually go on the land.

It’s a mess but it does need more money thrown at it imo.

[duncs500]

I’ve not looked into education but when I looked at the NHS the budget hadn’t kept up with inflation.

There are underfunding problems and as has already been said schools are selling assets like land to pay their bills, which can also have a detrimental impact as houses usually go on the land.

It’s a mess but it does need more money thrown at it imo.

I don't think the question should be whether the budget should keep up with inflation, the question should be how much money is needed to deliver good services if things are run properly.

Incorrect number x inflationary increase doesn't give you a correct number.

In reality, even inflationary increases might not be enough, not because they should need that much money to run, but because they've been wasting money for so long that massive capital investment is now needed just to get us to par.

So my first suggestion would be, find more money in the current budget for better day to day running, if there's an opportunity to increase funding, use it for a properly managed capital investment programme that probably after about 20 years brings us up to standard so that in future we won't be so far behind.

Again, too long term for a government sadly. I think I'm talking myself into the merits of a dictatorship! If only politicians could actually agree on anything and stop squabbling maybe we can actually plan for the future.