OV9

I think that's the fundamental issue really, public education is a mess and it seems to have taken a back seat to other issues in the media and hence policy.

For me it is (and although more relevant to me now, always has been) top priority along with defense. Unfortunately it takes a generation to see the results so our political system prevents it from being a priority in some ways.

Private education shouldn't really be in the conversation for someone like me, but a lack of confidence in the public sector is forcing people in that direction.

I thought the updates to this thread were going to be about Farage standing for Clacton. He might finally become an MP after never having been elected before - though I am well aware that is a regular joke to do down what he did manage to achieve politically.

The interesting thing is, he could potentially become leader of the opposition after the election. I don’t think there’s any chance he could be PM since if Reform poll well they’ll mainly damage the Tory vote which plays into the hands of Labour. But the Tory party will clearly get rid of Sunak; there has been talk of Farage rejoining the Tory party, and a large number of Tory party members want the party to move further right into the ground that Reform have occupied. Give Farage a sniff of the Tory leader role and he could well be persuaded to merge Reform into the Tories (and he has control of Reform - unlike other political parties it is constituted as a company and Farage has sole control of it).

Not sure it’s necessarily a likely outcome but there is a route to it; disarray in the Tories is certain (they’re struggling to field candidates in many seats FFS) and there is much more commonality of policy between Reform and a substantial number of powerful Tories than there was with UKIP. If the rest of the party can be persuaded that a move further right is the way to deal with an election drubbing… who knows.

@Rich B I agree re premium private schools, although I'd argue that we're not really subsidising by not taxing them, and are not really going to benefit from the tax gains either if we destroy their business!

I don't really think a phased approach works any better than cold turkey unless that phasing allows the current intake to complete their education... which again is not conducive to a political term of office. Otherwise the moment the phased approach is announced those kids are simply not going to go into the private system, you're not going to put them in knowing you can't afford it in the future. Hence the massive and unmanageable influx into the public system will commence.

They'd have to be mental to install Farage as leader, I know he's popular in some sections of society, but it would just be gaff after gaff, headline after headline. That's partly what got them into this mess!

Reform are just the right wing headbanger party du jour. I look forward to them getting a massive amount of press and doing fuck all at the election.

duncs500 wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 6:50 am @Rich B I agree re premium private schools, although I'd argue that we're not really subsidising by not taxing them, and are not really going to benefit from the tax gains either if we destroy their business!

I don't really think a phased approach works any better than cold turkey unless that phasing allows the current intake to complete their education... which again is not conducive to a political term of office. Otherwise the moment the phased approach is announced those kids are simply not going to go into the private system, you're not going to put them in knowing you can't afford it in the future. Hence the massive and unmanageable influx into the public system will commence.

Sorry to be harsh, but I don't believe that 20% makes the difference in your decision. If you're considering sending your child to private school right now, a £4K a term or £5k a term cost isn't going to fundamentally change your whole ethos for sending your kid to private school.

Couple that with the fact that they are businesses who will have to find a way to keep their customers, I can't see there being a huge defection.

I do think it will hit a few very unfairly though.

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 7:20 am Reform are just the right wing headbanger party du jour. I look forward to them getting a massive amount of press and doing fuck all at the election.

they'll get a lot of votes too, but not seats.

Politics does need this sort of thing every now and again though imo.

Rich B wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 7:25 am If you're considering sending your child to private school right now, a £4K a term or £5k a term cost isn't going to fundamentally change your whole ethos for sending your kid to private school.

I don’t disagree entirely but fees are more like £8k-ish for an “ordinary” private school. I just checked the one I went to. VAT puts that up to near enough £10k. An extra £6k pa per child - and some people have more than one, the lunatics

There will be a number of families for whom this is simply not feasible. I know my family struggled even though I had an assisted place and didn’t pay full fees. VAT may well have been the final straw back then.

OTOH my BiL is the demographic you’re talking about. He has three kids all in private schools and £20k would not make the slightest difference to their lifestyle.

As always it’s the middle that get hurt most by any of these left wing plans to “tax the rich”. Nobody is really going to tax the really rich. It’s too difficult.

Rich B wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 7:25 am Sorry to be harsh, but I don't believe that 20% makes the difference in your decision. If you're considering sending your child to private school right now, a £4K a term or £5k a term cost isn't going to fundamentally change your whole ethos for sending your kid to private school.

The bog standard private school near us is £8k per term, I think that's closer to average in the south east. So you're looking at nearly £5k p/a extra, factor in income tax and that is a significant chunk of additional salary for a working family.

Is this a case of "I've got good state schools near me so I think it's a good policy?". We have some good state schools near us too, but obviously they are all massively over subscribed.

I think the 20% will definitely make a difference. The only people I know sending their kids to a private school are making some big sacrifices to do it. Only 1 isn’t as they are just very wealthy.

It was already more expensive with the extended summer holidays with childcare etc so an extra 3k a year is another 10% of one of their salaries.

I think outlooks on coatings are skewed by anyone who has bonuses or extra etc. Most people just have a regular monthly wage, not bonuses or overtime to help or spread the load etc.

Dave!

duncs500 wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:15 am

Rich B wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 7:25 am Sorry to be harsh, but I don't believe that 20% makes the difference in your decision. If you're considering sending your child to private school right now, a £4K a term or £5k a term cost isn't going to fundamentally change your whole ethos for sending your kid to private school.

The bog standard private school near us is £8k per term, I think that's closer to average in the south east. So you're looking at nearly £5k p/a extra, factor in income tax and that is a significant chunk of additional salary for a working family.

Is this a case of "I've got good state schools near me so I think it's a good policy?". We have some good state schools near us too, but obviously they are all massively over subscribed.

so have you abandoned the idea because it may go up by up to 15%?

Sundayjumper wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:13 am As always it’s the middle that get hurt most by any of these left wing plans to “tax the rich”. Nobody is really going to tax the really rich. It’s too difficult.

All of this.

Taxing the properly rich is sadly:

a.) Too complex to explain, especially in short media friendly soundbites.
b.) Often has undesirable negative impacts in so far as they will take their wealth and indirect tax contributions elsewhere.

It's not fair, but there isn't a place on earth where wealth and power don't create inequality (communist states included). People are on average inherently selfish and greedy.

Rich B wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:21 am So have you abandoned the idea because it may go up by up to 15%?

Well I am sceptical about whether it will be implemented. There are plenty of Labour supporters and businesses leaders who it will affect (especially while they are pitching themselves as centrist), so it will not be without it's opposition and pressures once they're in government, plus I would imagine a reality check on the strain it will put on state schools will probably become available.

However, assuming it goes ahead, yeah I'll probably have to abandon it. Why? Does that surprise you?

Basically I have to pray that she gets into the local state primary and then it's a problem for another day (possibly even another government).

Rich B wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 7:25 am Sorry to be harsh, but I don't believe that 20% makes the difference in your decision. If you're considering sending your child to private school right now, a £4K a term or £5k a term cost isn't going to fundamentally change your whole ethos for sending your kid to private school.

A common view which isn't fair or correct in general.

It stems from a view that the "rich" (i.e. people who want to send their kids to private school) are "really rich" and not just people slightly better off than you.

You can dress this policy up all you want - they're profit seeking companies not charities, subsidising Eton etc but it's a cynical money grab attempt, aimed at vote winning and using the time worn "how will we pay for it? - we'll tax the rich because they can "afford" it" mantra.

The most frustrating thing for me is that IMO there is orders of magnitude more money available through improving the efficiency of government services than there is through some of these headline taxation policies. Despite being a beneficiary of government profligacy for most of my working life (and therefore it being akin to a turkey voting for Christmas), any party that provides a viable picture for how to improve efficiency in the public sector will get my vote.

duncs500 wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:27 am However, assuming it goes ahead, yeah I'll probably have to abandon it. Why? Does that surprise you?

I suppose it does, (and this is intentionally blunt for internet discussion, if we were chatting in real life I'd not talk in such blunt terms!) the idea that you're concerned enough about your kids education to commit to spending £24k a year on it, but at £30k a year - fuck it, they'll be ok!

This is why I think doing it one hit is too much - it doesn't give anyone (parents or schools) the chance to plan/cut/change to suit it.

dinny_g wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:31 am

Rich B wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 7:25 am Sorry to be harsh, but I don't believe that 20% makes the difference in your decision. If you're considering sending your child to private school right now, a £4K a term or £5k a term cost isn't going to fundamentally change your whole ethos for sending your kid to private school.

A common view which isn't fair or correct in general.

It stems from a view that the "rich" (i.e. people who want to send their kids to private school) are "really rich" and not just people slightly better off than you.

You can dress this policy up all you want - they're profit seeking companies not charities, subsidising Eton etc but it's a cynical money grab attempt, aimed at vote winning and using the time worn "how will we pay for it? - we'll tax the rich because they can "afford" it" mantra.

well to be fair, we can afford it far more than the poorest who are suffering the most.

Rich B wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:40 am

duncs500 wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:27 am However, assuming it goes ahead, yeah I'll probably have to abandon it. Why? Does that surprise you?

I suppose it does, (and this is intentionally blunt for internet discussion, if we were chatting in real life I'd not talk in such blunt terms!) the idea that you're concerned enough about your kids education to commit to spending £24k a year on it, but at £30k a year - fuck it, they'll be ok!

This is why I think doing it one hit is too much - it doesn't give anyone (parents or schools) the chance to plan/cut/change to suit it.

Finding that 6k is either doable or not though. On fixed contracts or set salaries eventually something has to give.

Dave!

Rich B wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:40 am I suppose it does, (and this is intentionally blunt for internet discussion, if we were chatting in real life I'd not talk in such blunt terms!) the idea that you're concerned enough about your kids education to commit to spending £24k a year on it, but at £30k a year - fuck it, they'll be ok!

This is why I think doing it one hit is too much - it doesn't give anyone (parents or schools) the chance to plan/cut/change to suit it.

You have to draw the line somewhere though right? £24k would be a real stretch for us, and would only be a decision we would take if backed into a corner. Also partly dependent on my daughter and her personality. We may feel that she's got a good attitude and is resilient enough to deal with the extra challenges that the existing state system will provide in any case. It would really be a last resort that would certainly mean we'd have to alter our lifestyle and retirement plans! But you do what you can.

I'll just have to go freelance and dodge the tax on the income side to make up for it!