OV9

There's a huge amount of fud being pushed lately yeah, but the network is far from adequate if up take of EVs keeps climbing like it has (although I'd hope that investment improves as more EV hit the road).

Range is affected in the cold but it depends on what tech the car has, to mitigate this. Mine is a base model and has no heat pump or heated seats, so it relies entirely on battery to warm up. I reckon in near freezing temps I'd struggle to get more than 200 miles. Compared to near 300 in summer. That said, I'm not likely to want to drive 300 miles when it's freezing cold anyway, so it's moot for my situation.

I am watching the lease prices closely though, and facing the real decision of whether to renew or not next year, as the same car would be £100+/month more, on current rates. That's eaten up the cost of petrol if I leased an ICE..

Barry wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:55 am There's a huge amount of fud being pushed lately yeah, but the network is far from adequate if up take of EVs keeps climbing like it has (although I'd hope that investment improves as more EV hit the road).

Range is affected in the cold but it depends on what tech the car has, to mitigate this. Mine is a base model and has no heat pump or heated seats, so it relies entirely on battery to warm up. I reckon in near freezing temps I'd struggle to get more than 200 miles. Compared to near 300 in summer. That said, I'm not likely to want to drive 300 miles when it's freezing cold anyway, so it's moot for my situation.

I am watching the lease prices closely though, and facing the real decision of whether to renew or not next year, as the same car would be £100+/month more, on current rates. That's eaten up the cost of petrol if I leased an ICE..

why wouldn't you want to drive 300 miles when it's cold?

The one thing I struggle with is this idea of having to have an app and account for each of the charger operators. Why TF can't I just rock up and use a debit/credit card just like I would at a PFS? It all seems unnnecessarily complex at the mo and until it's simplified down to the minimal level of faff, the take up will fall away.

Which is also why I think Tesla have done as well as they have. The tech is there to minimse the fuss and enable longer distance travel. It's poor on the part of the other OEMs that they haven't been able to universally tackle that side of the functionality.

It’s also the fact the charging speed itself isn’t guaranteed. Charging rates are thrown about but it’s so far away from reality it’s pointless.

What I think we are seeing is normal car owners being pushed into them either financially or for company reasons and not being a more excited early adopter.

Whatever the reason they have a long way to go till a suitable solution for all people is there but at the minute it just feels like a “help the rich” situation.

Hopefully things improve as currently, there is not a single car that can do what we want at any price point. Which is mad as petrol and diesel versions there are loads.

Dave!

Tesla only have one USP, and incredibly they still have it all these years later. The other manufacturers are so reluctant to make their own charging network that they ended up telling customers "soon you can just use the Tesla network" which they conveniently don't mention is only at low use sites and disables non tesla vehicles during peak use hours

Rich B wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:07 am

Barry wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:55 am There's a huge amount of fud being pushed lately yeah, but the network is far from adequate if up take of EVs keeps climbing like it has (although I'd hope that investment improves as more EV hit the road).

Range is affected in the cold but it depends on what tech the car has, to mitigate this. Mine is a base model and has no heat pump or heated seats, so it relies entirely on battery to warm up. I reckon in near freezing temps I'd struggle to get more than 200 miles. Compared to near 300 in summer. That said, I'm not likely to want to drive 300 miles when it's freezing cold anyway, so it's moot for my situation.

I am watching the lease prices closely though, and facing the real decision of whether to renew or not next year, as the same car would be £100+/month more, on current rates. That's eaten up the cost of petrol if I leased an ICE..

why wouldn't you want to drive 300 miles when it's cold?

Because it's cold and I don't tend to plan anything when the weather can turn nasty. Not saying it won't happen but it's not as reason to discount a vehicle either.

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:08 am The one thing I struggle with is this idea of having to have an app and account for each of the charger operators. Why TF can't I just rock up and use a debit/credit card just like I would at a PFS? It all seems unnnecessarily complex at the mo and until it's simplified down to the minimal level of faff, the take up will fall away.

I think any new chargers need to have contactless payment available, but yeah, I refused to get involved in all those apps. It'll take time for that to trickle down to existing units of course, cos there's no incentive for the suppliers to do so..

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:08 am The one thing I struggle with is this idea of having to have an app and account for each of the charger operators. Why TF can't I just rock up and use a debit/credit card just like I would at a PFS? It all seems unnnecessarily complex at the mo and until it's simplified down to the minimal level of faff, the take up will fall away.

Which is also why I think Tesla have done as well as they have. The tech is there to minimse the fuss and enable longer distance travel. It's poor on the part of the other OEMs that they haven't been able to universally tackle that side of the functionality.

Pretty much all of them do these days, certainly for rapid chargers. I tend to favour Instavolt, MFG, Shell or Osprey (as they tend to ones with at least two chargers, many with far more) and they all do contactless. The only rapids I can think of that need an app is Podpoint, and ironically Tesla if you don't have one of their cars. Octopus sent me a card that works on most of the smaller/local/slow ones and it just takes it off my electric bill.

On the Rogers adoption curve we're only just past early adopters if you count new car sales (and a lot of that is fleets). If you think of EVs in terms of all the cars in the UK then it's still firmly in "innovators" at around 2%.



I'm not saying there aren't headaches - there's a lot of old and badly thought out charging out there, done as cheaply as possible in a fit of enthusiasm several years ago. Pick a random site on zap-map and it could well be one of those - many of them desperately need updating or ripping out. Gridserve inherited a very neglected network at the motorway services which they're putting right but it takes time (only ~19 months in to be fair). Aim for the good places though, many just off the motorway, and you do get a hassle-free experience.

I think the situation now is about as bad as it's going to get - COVID delayed lots of work, plus loads of people bought EVs hence the constraints on chargers. There's serious investment going on now (and serious power infrastructure to good sites) so it'll be a much better experience in the coming years.

V8Granite wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:20 am What I think we are seeing is normal car owners being pushed into them either financially or for company reasons and not being a more excited early adopter.

I think that's it - and many also seem to go in to it without doing any sort of research first, hence some of the frustrations about the sub-par charging network.

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:08 am The one thing I struggle with is this idea of having to have an app and account for each of the charger operators. Why TF can't I just rock up and use a debit/credit card just like I would at a PFS? It all seems unnnecessarily complex at the mo and until it's simplified down to the minimal level of faff, the take up will fall away.

This is the case with app-based parking charges - loads of different apps for different locations and operators, but once you have them all on your phone it's not too bad. I don't think having a few separate apps would put me off.

What does still put me off is the cost. I fancy a Genesis GV60 but I just can't justify the up-front £60k or more, even through the business. Now that EVs are depreciating harder (Porsche Taycans have rapidly gone from selling nearly new for way more than RRP to losing £20k on day one), it works out very expensive to run an appliance.

Isn't it much more tax efficient to put a brand new EV through the business? I imagine the vast majority of Taycan owners do that.

Jobbo wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:37 pm

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:08 am The one thing I struggle with is this idea of having to have an app and account for each of the charger operators. Why TF can't I just rock up and use a debit/credit card just like I would at a PFS? It all seems unnnecessarily complex at the mo and until it's simplified down to the minimal level of faff, the take up will fall away.

This is the case with app-based parking charges - loads of different apps for different locations and operators, but once you have them all on your phone it's not too bad. I don't think having a few separate apps would put me off.

What does still put me off is the cost. I fancy a Genesis GV60 but I just can't justify the up-front £60k or more, even through the business. Now that EVs are depreciating harder (Porsche Taycans have rapidly gone from selling nearly new for way more than RRP to losing £20k on day one), it works out very expensive to run an appliance.

Just wait till road charging come in a few years. Ultra expensive 'regular' EVs, sky high leccy costs and road charging thrown in for good measure.

Running a car will be very expensive.

simon_g wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:59 pm Isn't it much more tax efficient to put a brand new EV through the business? I imagine the vast majority of Taycan owners do that.

It is tax efficient, but whenever I've looked at doing it (with a used Tesla Model S - doesn't have to be new), the fact that it costs twice as much to buy the vehicle in the first place destroys the tax saving. The tax benefit is gradually decreasing as well, and depreciation is growing. All in all, there was a window when it worked well but that is dwindling.

Mito Man wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:24 am Tesla only have one USP, and incredibly they still have it all these years later. The other manufacturers are so reluctant to make their own charging network that they ended up telling customers "soon you can just use the Tesla network" which they conveniently don't mention is only at low use sites and disables non tesla vehicles during peak use hours

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mercedes/ ... ng-network

dinny_g wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 3:49 pm

Mito Man wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:24 am Tesla only have one USP, and incredibly they still have it all these years later. The other manufacturers are so reluctant to make their own charging network that they ended up telling customers "soon you can just use the Tesla network" which they conveniently don't mention is only at low use sites and disables non tesla vehicles during peak use hours

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mercedes/ ... ng-network

So 2027+ for them to even begin work in Europe? You can order a new EV Mercedes now, get it by the end of the year, have a 3 year lease expire and still there will be no dedicated chargers A whole generation of customers who at the first sign of difficulty charging will think feck this and go to another brand.

I have quite a few friends/colleagues who jumped into EV's for the massive BiK savings and are now regretting their choice. Tesla's and EQC's seem to be the main choices and charging is causing them some real headaches. Much longer to do journeys, lack of convenience, etc all causing them to wish they gone phev.

It's really put me off now and confirmed my thoughts for higher mileage users.

Carlos wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:24 am Brainwashed!

Easy now, that can go both ways

I don't think the London scrappage plan is the best thing to do for the wider country and bigger picture. The last round of scrappage saw plenty of perfectly good cars go to waste that would have been better going to the second hand market to replace worn out poopers. There were other knock-on effects, all in all in doesn't help cleaner vehicles filter down more quickly.

We’re still years away from it but I reckon there will be a pretty damning report in the next 10/20 years which shows the massive push to green energy in the West made bugger all difference to global emissions, caused greater global environmental contamination from mining and significantly increased wealth inequality. It’s already obvious where it’s all heading.

Mito Man wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 4:33 pm

dinny_g wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 3:49 pm

Mito Man wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:24 am Tesla only have one USP, and incredibly they still have it all these years later. The other manufacturers are so reluctant to make their own charging network that they ended up telling customers "soon you can just use the Tesla network" which they conveniently don't mention is only at low use sites and disables non tesla vehicles during peak use hours

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mercedes/ ... ng-network

So 2027+ for them to even begin work in Europe? You can order a new EV Mercedes now, get it by the end of the year, have a 3 year lease expire and still there will be no dedicated chargers A whole generation of customers who at the first sign of difficulty charging will think feck this and go to another brand.

Nothing happens overnight Mito. Anyway, the link was to show other Manufacturers are moving to have their own charging networks.

Anyone else other than Tesla have their own??

dinny_g wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:51 pm Anyone else other than Tesla have their own??

Ionity is a joint venture between BMW, Ford, Hyundai/Kia, Mercedes and VW group. I think they all now have some sort of owners' discount or monthly schemes to get cheaper charging via it.

Makes little sense for MB to do their own in Europe - even in the US they'd probably be better off helping VW to fund Electrify America if they want a decent alternative to Tesla's network there.