OV9

Having had physio (after the car crash, again specified and paid for by others) - it was basically the same as the treatment I had at the chiropractor.

It wasn’t crystals, meditation or needles!

Look, I get it. You have back pain or whatever, you go and see a bloke in a white coat who gives you a bit of a rub, and move a few things around. After a few months (as per Rich's anecdote) you feel better. Happy days! It must work, right? Except studies show that actually, that quick rub and manipulation is no better than anyone giving you a bit of a massage, trained or otherwise.

Physiotherapists on the NHS have 6 x 40 minute appointments maximum in which to try and fix you, and they're targeted on it. I guarantee you that if you see a physio and (and this is the important bit!) do the exercises they give you, you'll improve as much as is possible for your condition without surgery without going back every week for months at a time.

Do we have 3 forumites with lower back pain? We can do our own test. 1 can go to a physio, 1 to an osteo, and I'll massage the 3rd. Let's see who gets better first.

I genuinely don't understand the mentality of someone being presented with the options of a scientifically proven medical practice, or 1 of 2 "alternative therapies" and choosing one of the latter.

Rich B wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:41 pm Having had physio (after the car crash, again specified and paid for by others) - it was basically the same as the treatment I had at the chiropractor.

It wasn’t crystals, meditation or needles!

It may as well have been. I agree, the treatments are essentially massaging and manipulating joints. The difference is that a physio knows what they're doing and why. The chiro may as well be me with a bottle of baby oil.

And actually, there's tons of medical evidence that meditation is extremely effective for pain management

Yep, you really don’t know what a chiropractor does.

Rich B wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:47 pm Yep, you really don’t know what a chiropractor does.

Take money off you for medically unsound practice.

NotoriousREV wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:48 pm

Rich B wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:47 pm Yep, you really don’t know what a chiropractor does.

Take money off you for medically unsound practice.

Wrong again.

Rich B wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:47 pm Yep, you really don’t know what a chiropractor does.

The problem is that people who visit chiropractors don't know what they do, either. People think they're medically trained specialists. They're really not. It's a bit like people thinking homeopathy is "natural remedies" when in reality it's fucking batshit nonsense.

Chiropractors believe that everything can be fixed by resolving vertebral subluxation, which is up there with flat earth theories. Modern chiros have taken on many physical therapies stolen from actual physiotherapy, but at its heart, it's still all based on pseudo-science and you may as well go to an actual physio instead of someone playing at it.

NotoriousREV wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:41 pm
Do we have 3 forumites with lower back pain? We can do our own test. 1 can go to a physio, 1 to an osteo, and I'll massage the 3rd. Let's see who gets better first.

My back is good at the moment. I nominate Foz.

NotoriousREV wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:59 pm

Rich B wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:47 pm Yep, you really don’t know what a chiropractor does.

The problem is that people who visit chiropractors don't know what they do, either. People think they're medically trained specialists. They're really not. It's a bit like people thinking homeopathy is "natural remedies" when in reality it's fucking batshit nonsense.

Chiropractors believe that everything can be fixed by resolving vertebral subluxation, which is up there with flat earth theories. Modern chiros have taken on many physical therapies stolen from actual physiotherapy, but at its heart, it's still all based on pseudo-science and you may as well go to an actual physio instead of someone playing at it.

You'd probably be better off directing your know-it-all rants at BUPA mate, they chose and paid for mine.

Rich B wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:04 pm

NotoriousREV wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:59 pm

Rich B wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:47 pm Yep, you really don’t know what a chiropractor does.

The problem is that people who visit chiropractors don't know what they do, either. People think they're medically trained specialists. They're really not. It's a bit like people thinking homeopathy is "natural remedies" when in reality it's fucking batshit nonsense.

Chiropractors believe that everything can be fixed by resolving vertebral subluxation, which is up there with flat earth theories. Modern chiros have taken on many physical therapies stolen from actual physiotherapy, but at its heart, it's still all based on pseudo-science and you may as well go to an actual physio instead of someone playing at it.

You'd probably be better off directing your know-it-all rants at BUPA mate, they chose and paid for mine.

I absolutely would rant at them if they offered me that instead of physio. This is also part of the problem, people think it's legitimate because it's offered by the NHS, Bupa, Spire etc. but even they are very careful to call it "alternative" or "complementary" treatment. A physio will be more effective, more quickly. Being angry with me for pointing this out doesn't change the truth of it.

NotoriousREV wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:11 pm

Rich B wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:04 pm

NotoriousREV wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:59 pm

The problem is that people who visit chiropractors don't know what they do, either. People think they're medically trained specialists. They're really not. It's a bit like people thinking homeopathy is "natural remedies" when in reality it's fucking batshit nonsense.

Chiropractors believe that everything can be fixed by resolving vertebral subluxation, which is up there with flat earth theories. Modern chiros have taken on many physical therapies stolen from actual physiotherapy, but at its heart, it's still all based on pseudo-science and you may as well go to an actual physio instead of someone playing at it.

You'd probably be better off directing your know-it-all rants at BUPA mate, they chose and paid for mine.

I absolutely would rant at them if they offered me that instead of physio. This is also part of the problem, people think it's legitimate because it's offered by the NHS, Bupa, Spire etc. but even they are very careful to call it "alternative" or "complementary" treatment. A physio will be more effective, more quickly. Being angry with me for pointing this out doesn't change the truth of it.

i reckon I’m going to side with BUPA and their massive experience of what is effective treatment on this one...

Look up the simpson's ep on this one. Tells you all you need to know. I probably wouldn't be walking, let alone county champion, without a chiropractor...

In our case, my wife tried the NHS and they gave her exercises and anti-inflammatory medication. No change.

She spoke to her booby group friends hoping some had similar and they said massaging, I did some and then she went to someone professional. Felt nice for a few days but came back.

I spoke to some friends and they suggested we try someone the rugby club used who luckily was a 5 minute walk from our house.

She came home battered and bruised, it was not a comfortable experience for her but after her 3rd session it hasn’t returned in what must be over 3 years after having it for over 3.

He knew how muscles, ligaments and nerves worked and she got a great result. If I had any issues I’d definitely go back to the same person. Comparing it to crystals is ridiculous.

If it works, go for it, not everything medical is black and white. I had blood in my stools for a year which the NHS couldn’t figure out, it was sorted by a Nurse in Uganda in about 15 minutes.

Dave!

Rich B wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:20 pm

NotoriousREV wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:11 pm

Rich B wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:04 pm You'd probably be better off directing your know-it-all rants at BUPA mate, they chose and paid for mine.

I absolutely would rant at them if they offered me that instead of physio. This is also part of the problem, people think it's legitimate because it's offered by the NHS, Bupa, Spire etc. but even they are very careful to call it "alternative" or "complementary" treatment. A physio will be more effective, more quickly. Being angry with me for pointing this out doesn't change the truth of it.

i reckon I’m going to side with BUPA and their massive experience of what is effective treatment on this one...

And I’ll side with scientific evidence rather than the private company looking to make a profit.

NotoriousREV wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:11 pm Being angry with me for pointing this out doesn't change the truth of it.

You're coming across as the angry one, Rev
Don't start the weekend that way

V8Granite wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:46 pm I had blood in my stools for a year which the NHS couldn’t figure out, it was sorted by a Nurse in Uganda in about 15 minutes.

Dave!

Yep too much pegging can do that.

nuttinnew wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:21 pm

NotoriousREV wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:11 pm Being angry with me for pointing this out doesn't change the truth of it.

You're coming across as the angry one, Rev
Don't start the weekend that way

Far from it. Just amazed at people who are normally rational and logical being suckered into the alternative therapies nonsense.

Mito Man wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:24 pm

V8Granite wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:46 pm I had blood in my stools for a year which the NHS couldn’t figure out, it was sorted by a Nurse in Uganda in about 15 minutes.

Dave!

Yep too much pegging can do that.

Is that what people call 'fucking their dog' these days?

There are case reports of chiropractors causing strokes by manipulating peoples’ necks - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6016850/ for instance but the event rate is so small it is hard to know what the actual risk level is.

Re sciatica and back pain - depends what is causing it. Muscular factors will be amenable to strengthening exercises (physio) and probably massage (I’m broadly including chiropractic in that) but what most people don’t realise is that they are stuck in a vicious cycle of pain driving local inflammation which drives muscle spasm and begets more pain.

Target the pain (simple painkillers), inflammation (nonsteroidal antiinflammatories like ibuprofen and voltarol) and spasm (relaxants like diazepam) intensively for a few days and the cycle breaks.

I tend to recommend to friends and relatives to take 1 gram of paracetamol 4 times a day, 400mg of ibuprofen 3 times a day, it easy and do gentle stretching for 3 days and only look for further help if things aren’t on the mend by then. It’s amazing how 3 days of the right meds early on breaks the cycle though.

If you have a more serious problem like a slipped disc or arthritis of spine joints there is still a role for physio to help things but I’m less convinced of chiropractic in that instance.

Explosive Newt wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:35 pm
Words from a medically trained person you should probably take as sound advice

Nonsense. Don't believe it for a second. They're all in the pockets of big business. What you need is s twice daily infusion of a strong tincture of eye of newt mixed 50/30 with adder spit following the homeopathic rules of fortifying a treatment.

You'll be fine in no time.