OV9

V8Granite wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:33 am I’ve heard that the BLM movement in the UK wants to overthrow the government and disband the police.

I don't think that's what it's all about Dave, but I'm sure you can find someone somewhere ranting about anything.

That’s what I mean, I’ve seen it mentioned in several places but if you google enough you can prove they promote clown colleges for spacemen

Dave!

They have “defund the police” slogans and they had it on their mission statement in a few places.
No police = no police brutality. Not the most ideal way of tackling the underlying issue though.

Its essentially the same as with the Extinction Rebellion rabble. The underlying issues people are protesting about are legitimate but the core organisation itself is a leftist cult of anti-capitalist quasi-anarchists.

GG. wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:53 am leftist cult of anti-capitalist quasi-anarchists.

Sounds ideal tbh

Mito Man wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:51 am They have “defund the police” slogans and they had it on their mission statement in a few places.
No police = no police brutality. Not the most ideal way of tackling the underlying issue though.

Defending the police doesn't mean no police, it means diverting resources that the police get to services that works serve the community better.

IE better local mental health services is better than the police having to talk down some nutter with a knife outside a bar.

It's definitely more prevalent in the US where the literal billions the police spend on military equipment and training might be better served, by say, better local drug abuse support services.

Beany wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:55 pm

Mito Man wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:51 am They have “defund the police” slogans and they had it on their mission statement in a few places.
No police = no police brutality. Not the most ideal way of tackling the underlying issue though.

Defending the police doesn't mean no police, it means diverting resources that the police get to services that works serve the community better.

IE better local mental health services is better than the police having to talk down some nutter with a knife outside a bar.

It's definitely more prevalent in the US where the literal billions the police spend on military equipment and training might be better served, by say, better local drug abuse support services.

I think there are a variety of views even within those who want to 'defund' the police. Some want to divert some of their resources, some want to totally remodel and there's a hardcore but significant proportion that want total abolition.

Thing is, like much of this whole debate, it doesn't apply to the UK in anything like the same way as the US (as you note to be fair). Our model of 'policing by consent' with generally unarmed law enforcement is already the model (or close to it) of what many are pushing for in the US - i.e. 'community safety led policing'.

The knee jerk reaction is in theory then "well, the US should adopt our system". This, however, wouldn't work in a country why the average Joe very well may be carrying a gun. I think you have to solve that problem first before you can 'defund' the police, even if you take that to mean just moving to our model - having the police step back in the current situation just ends up in a massive spike in homicides, which you can already see looking at recent events Chicago for example.

A lot of people don’t trust the police here either though. Either because they’ve had it drummed into them from family or from negative experiences themselves. The first is harder to deal with than the other.

Some reform on how police deal with the public is needed here as well.

ZedLeg wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:51 pm A lot of people don’t trust the police here either though. Either because they’ve had it drummed into them from family or from negative experiences themselves. The first is harder to deal with than the other.

Some reform on how police deal with the public is needed here as well.

I think the police need greater powers and to concentrate more on lower level crime. We had PC George and when he was about everyone was good as gold, anything went wrong and he would be all over you from dropping litter to threatening someone with a knife. Little Billy, aspiring footballer, doesn’t wake up and murder someone, the lack of action by parents or figureheads like the police let people think there are no consequences.

A lot of this is down to parenting though like you say and having things drummed into them from birth.

Dave!

V8Granite wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:58 pm

ZedLeg wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:51 pm A lot of people don’t trust the police here either though. Either because they’ve had it drummed into them from family or from negative experiences themselves. The first is harder to deal with than the other.

Some reform on how police deal with the public is needed here as well.

I think the police need greater powers and to concentrate more on lower level crime. We had PC George and when he was about everyone was good as gold, anything went wrong and he would be all over you from dropping litter to threatening someone with a knife. Little Billy, aspiring footballer, doesn’t wake up and murder someone, the lack of action by parents or figureheads like the police let people think there are no consequences.

A lot of this is down to parenting though like you say and having things drummed into them from birth.

Dave!

I can’t disagree with any of that. It’s widely known ‘victimless’ crimes (bullshit if a crime can be considered victimless) can’t be investigated because the Police have no resources to do so, plus we don’t have the capacity to back up convicts with a sentence so a lot of crimes where it’s considered to have had a ‘victim’ the criminals spend a day or two in court and essentially walk free on a suspended sentence. It’s no wonder more and more people are loosing confidence in our police force.

Surely not taking a knee suggests you disagree with the statement that Black Lives Matter?

I get what is being said about the Poppy mafia but I don't think this is the same argument. I struggle to see why anyone but a racist would disagree with the fundamental statement.

I do hear "but racism isn't a thing in the UK" but that has been almost exclusively from white people, very different story if you are black or Asian.

Gavin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:11 am Black Lives Matter

Your capitalisation is the point. BLM is not a statement of racial equality but an anti-capitalist anarchist movement which is quite happy to burn society to the ground to achieve its aims. You can disagree with that organisation without being racist or disagree that 'black lives, matter'.

It isn't just a pedantic point. The fact that you question the possibility of being able to disagree with that organisations methods to achieve the aim of racial equality without being a racist, is exactly what they want. Legitimise the means by conflating it with the ends therefore they don't need to make logical arguments as to why abolishing the police, etc. is the right course of action.

GG. wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:14 am

Gavin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:11 am Black Lives Matter

Your capitalisation is the point. BLM is not a statement of racial equality but an anti-capitalist anarchist movement which is quite happy to burn society to the ground to achieve its aims. You can disagree with that organisation without being racist or disagree that 'black lives, matter'.

It isn't just a pedantic point. The fact that you question the possibility of being able to disagree with their methods to achieve the aim of racial equality is exactly what they want. Legitimise the means by conflating it with the ends.

You think all those people turning up to ask for equal human rights are anti capitalist anarchists?

"their methods" that I apparently question? I am talking about taking a knee in this post but yes, if one disagrees with the basic principle that colour shouldn't matter then one should probably be having a long hard look at oneself rather than attempting to steer the argument down some rabbit hole of anti-capitalism.

Gavin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:11 am S very different story if you are black or Asian.

Although apparently if you are Asian and believe that the UK's not actually a bad place to grow up Asian then you're cast out. Hindu Asians in particular.

Gavin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:20 am

GG. wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:14 am

Gavin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:11 am Black Lives Matter

Your capitalisation is the point. BLM is not a statement of racial equality but an anti-capitalist anarchist movement which is quite happy to burn society to the ground to achieve its aims. You can disagree with that organisation without being racist or disagree that 'black lives, matter'.

It isn't just a pedantic point. The fact that you question the possibility of being able to disagree with their methods to achieve the aim of racial equality is exactly what they want. Legitimise the means by conflating it with the ends.

You think all those people turning up to ask for equal human rights are anti capitalist anarchists?

"their methods" that I apparently question? I am talking about taking a knee in this post but yes, if one disagrees with the basic principle that colour shouldn't matter then one should probably be having a long hard look at oneself rather than attempting to steer the argument down some rabbit hole of anti-capitalism.

But see, this is precisely where I have an issue with the straw-man arguments and lack of nuance.

You've alleged the following:

- "all those people turning up to ask for equal human rights are anti capitalist anarchists" - false, straw man - I don't think that;
- "if one disagrees with the basic principle that colour shouldn't matter then one should probably be having a long hard look at oneself" - false - near libellous insinuation that that's what you (i.e. I) think if you disagree with the stated aims of the organisers of BLM (as opposed to the demonstrators, generally), one being anti-capitalism.

Gavin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:11 am Surely not taking a knee suggests you disagree with the statement that Black Lives Matter?

I get what is being said about the Poppy mafia but I don't think this is the same argument. I struggle to see why anyone but a racist would disagree with the fundamental statement.

I do hear "but racism isn't a thing in the UK" but that has been almost exclusively from white people, very different story if you are black or Asian.

I disagree with taking the knee for an organisation that goes against what I think is right.

I do t need to drop a knee on the ground to show I’m not a racist, I do that by my actions. Also anyone who thinks I should to prove it in some way is not someone I ever wish to associate with.

In the same way I don’t give to any large charity, it doesn’t mean I hope those that need help shouldn’t get it.

Dave!

GG. wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:28 am

Gavin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:20 am

GG. wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:14 am

Your capitalisation is the point. BLM is not a statement of racial equality but an anti-capitalist anarchist movement which is quite happy to burn society to the ground to achieve its aims. You can disagree with that organisation without being racist or disagree that 'black lives, matter'.

It isn't just a pedantic point. The fact that you question the possibility of being able to disagree with their methods to achieve the aim of racial equality is exactly what they want. Legitimise the means by conflating it with the ends.

You think all those people turning up to ask for equal human rights are anti capitalist anarchists?

"their methods" that I apparently question? I am talking about taking a knee in this post but yes, if one disagrees with the basic principle that colour shouldn't matter then one should probably be having a long hard look at oneself rather than attempting to steer the argument down some rabbit hole of anti-capitalism.

But see, this is precisely where I have an issue with the straw-man arguments and lack of nuance.

You've alleged the following:

- "all those people turning up to ask for equal human rights are anti capitalist anarchists" - false, straw man - I don't think that;
- "if one disagrees with the basic principle that colour shouldn't matter then one should probably be having a long hard look at oneself" - false - near libellous insinuation that that's what you (i.e. I) think if you disagree with the stated aims of the organisers of BLM (as opposed to the demonstrators, generally), one being anti-capitalism.

You stated in your initial post that "BLM is not a statement of racial equality but an anti-capitalist anarchist movement" I asked if you thought all the people turning up were anti capitalists, I did not accuse you of anything.

I get that you make our living as a solicitor/lawyer and I haven't the energy to go tit for tat with you on this or any subject. As often is the case, I made a fairly simple post and people then argue against points I simply haven't made.

Perhaps my first post should have read "Surely being against "taking a knee" rather than specifically "surely not taking a knee"

My argument is that racism is a very real problem, not that every white person is racist, nor that every racist is white, not that everyone who is not white will have experienced racism.

V8Granite wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:40 am

Gavin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:11 am Surely not taking a knee suggests you disagree with the statement that Black Lives Matter?

I get what is being said about the Poppy mafia but I don't think this is the same argument. I struggle to see why anyone but a racist would disagree with the fundamental statement.

I do hear "but racism isn't a thing in the UK" but that has been almost exclusively from white people, very different story if you are black or Asian.

I disagree with taking the knee for an organisation that goes against what I think is right.

I do t need to drop a knee on the ground to show I’m not a racist, I do that by my actions. Also anyone who thinks I should to prove it in some way is not someone I ever wish to associate with.

In the same way I don’t give to any large charity, it doesn’t mean I hope those that need help shouldn’t get it.

Dave!

By organisation you mean BLM?

Are you being asked to drop to your knee at all?

I agree with you on large charities but that is a different subject for a different thread and day.

Gavin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:48 am

V8Granite wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:40 am

Gavin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:11 am Surely not taking a knee suggests you disagree with the statement that Black Lives Matter?

I get what is being said about the Poppy mafia but I don't think this is the same argument. I struggle to see why anyone but a racist would disagree with the fundamental statement.

I do hear "but racism isn't a thing in the UK" but that has been almost exclusively from white people, very different story if you are black or Asian.

I disagree with taking the knee for an organisation that goes against what I think is right.

I do t need to drop a knee on the ground to show I’m not a racist, I do that by my actions. Also anyone who thinks I should to prove it in some way is not someone I ever wish to associate with.

In the same way I don’t give to any large charity, it doesn’t mean I hope those that need help shouldn’t get it.

Dave!

By organisation you mean BLM?

Are you being asked to drop to your knee at all?

I agree with you on large charities but that is a different subject for a different thread and day.

No but you yourself say you struggle to see why anyone but a racist wouldn’t do it. If you think that people thinking like that doesn’t pressure people into doing it then you must be mad.

I certainly don’t think it should be stopped, I respect anyone’s right to do it.

I do the minutes silence and stand still and quiet, in our town lots of people did the same and lots carried on as normal. Still walking and driving etc but not making any excessive noise. Some people found that offensive. I don’t think it’s offensive, they weren’t getting in the way or being a nuisance and they shouldn’t be pushed to observe the silence in the same way as other people.

I like to think all reasonable people think the same at anyone’s right to do what they think is needed aslong as it doesn’t negatively influence others who are not involved.

If it was to drop the knee to stand (fnar) against racism, I would have no issue with doing that personally.

Dave!

Closet left wing racists Dave. I've decided people being offended just because are just looking for attention as they are vanilla individuals.