OV9

I think JK Rowling has nailed it for me:

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:36 am However, the subsequent treatment of the Greece situation by the EU has only served to make matters so much worse than they really ought to have been. They've presided over a humanitarian disaster of their own making, and been unrepentant in the process, and now Greece are fvcked for evermore. Lagarde and the IMF have a lot to answer for as well - she's another dodgy tw4t just like Juncker, Tusk, Scheuble and Selmayr.

Don't forget though, subjection and the impoverishment of a nation is ok and justifiable so long as they 'deserved' it.

Generally if someone breaks the rules of the club you throw them out, rather than imprison them in the dungeon as penance. Of course they're doing that as the member owes a debt to the club and would destabilise its wellbeing so imprisonment must be done "in its own interests".

GG. wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:53 am

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:36 am However, the subsequent treatment of the Greece situation by the EU has only served to make matters so much worse than they really ought to have been. They've presided over a humanitarian disaster of their own making, and been unrepentant in the process, and now Greece are fvcked for evermore. Lagarde and the IMF have a lot to answer for as well - she's another dodgy tw4t just like Juncker, Tusk, Scheuble and Selmayr.

Don't forget though, subjection and the impoverishment of a nation is ok and justifiable so long as they 'deserved' it.

Generally if someone breaks the rules of the club you throw them out, rather than imprison them in the dungeon as penance.

But that isn't what happened, is it? They got bailed out and told to get their shit under control. If it wasn't the EU telling them that, it would've been the IMF, or the vulture capitalists, or China, or Russia etc etc etc. They needed bailing out and anyone pumping money in would have demanded something in return.

They ran out of money and they faced the consequences. It's nothing to do with whether or not they deserved it.

Yeah, but they had like 200 other things on their mind at the time...

NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:57 am

GG. wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:53 am

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:36 am However, the subsequent treatment of the Greece situation by the EU has only served to make matters so much worse than they really ought to have been. They've presided over a humanitarian disaster of their own making, and been unrepentant in the process, and now Greece are fvcked for evermore. Lagarde and the IMF have a lot to answer for as well - she's another dodgy tw4t just like Juncker, Tusk, Scheuble and Selmayr.

Don't forget though, subjection and the impoverishment of a nation is ok and justifiable so long as they 'deserved' it.

Generally if someone breaks the rules of the club you throw them out, rather than imprison them in the dungeon as penance.

But that isn't what happened, is it? They got bailed out and told to get their shit under control. If it wasn't the EU telling them that, it would've been the IMF, or the vulture capitalists, or China, or Russia etc etc etc. They needed bailing out and anyone pumping money in would have demanded something in return.

They ran out of money and they faced the consequences. It's nothing to do with whether or not they deserved it.

Yeah, I'm not down with that assertion either. I don't believe the EU did what it has done because Greece "deserved" it, for breaking rules. For one I don't think the EU gives enough of a cr4p about whether or not many of its "rules" are broken, as long as the wider project keeps on moving. Far more to do with the hardline stance of some of the Germans (Schaeuble), and a desire to protect the EU from a potential uprising of the increasingly disgruntled German voter. Greece were sacrificed more than anything.

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:36 am Greece certainly are culpable to some degree for the situation they find themselves in. However, the EU were more than happy to allow the rules to be bent (by not only Greece but a few of the PIIGS) in order for their march forward towards closer integration to happen via the introduction of the single currency. Their fate was sealed at that point as you say.

However, the subsequent treatment of the Greece situation by the EU has only served to make matters so much worse than they really ought to have been. They've presided over a humanitarian disaster of their own making, and been unrepentant in the process, and now Greece are fvcked for evermore. Lagarde and the IMF have a lot to answer for as well - she's another dodgy tw4t just like Juncker, Tusk, Scheuble and Selmayr.

This...

You can argue that Greece lit their own fire but the European Central Bank were more than happy to Fan the flames for years and years with cheap money. It's the inherent flaw in the system. The EU is NOT even but the ECB can't publically provide cheaper money to members with performing economies and supress the money supply to the weaker ones without acknowledging this inherent flaw. In the But EU Love in, we're all the same!!

With specific reference to this in the Irish context, from about 2002 to 2007 or 2008, just about every political or economic commentator who was advising caution and espousing cooling measures by the Irish Government to slow the rampant expansion and Celtic Tiger Economy was met with the same response. Heresy!!! "The EU's too big to fail. The ECB wouldn't let one of their own get into trouble. You're wishing a recession / housing crash. Sure there'll be a sift landing - We'll be grand, now, let's buy another 7 series and a flat in Arklow off Plans.

The argument that the Irish (or Greek) government got themselves into trouble and by extension, anyone who lost their home or their business and as grown up's should take responsibility is only valid in Hindsight and before the crash, would have expressed a fundamental lack of believe in the EU itself.

and you're bang on about Lagarde and the IMF...

a) A has been said, who wants that job anway, and
b) The EU has said it won't renegotiate unless we want a closer relationship to avoid hard border (ie, stay in SM and CU), and
c) The deal on the table is a result of both reality and the red lines.

A change of leader won't give us anything but a hard brexit and chaos.

UK Prime Minister Theresa May will face a vote of no confidence in her leadership later on Wednesday.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46535739

Like the one Corbyn lost and ignored?

Maybe he had like 200 things on his mind at the time? VOTE LEAVE!

So May will go, any replacement will obviously NOT look to push Brexit through, we won't do the formal leaving as the ECJ has said we can. Things will drag on, a General Election will be called, Labour will win, Corbyn's Britain will commence (Comrades) and, to put Brexit to bed once and for all, will have a second referendum. Britain will vote to Leave the EU as a protest against Corbyn.

sound about right ???

I saw this comment underneath an article about the vote of no confidence, made me smile -

Tories you made the decision about May two years ago, you can’t change it, that’s undemocratic.

dinny_g wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:48 am So May will go, any replacement will obviously NOT look to push Brexit through, we won't do the formal leaving as the ECJ has said we can. Things will drag on, a General Election will be called, Labour will win, Corbyn's Britain will commence (Comrades) and, to put Brexit to bed once and for all, will have a second referendum. Britain will vote to Leave the EU as a protest against Corbyn.

sound about right ???

That wouldn't be much of a protest, Corbyn is as anti EU as the most red faced gammon .

Everything still seems to be going really well though. I'm looking forward to starting construction on my thunderdome in the spring.

ZedLeg wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:27 am That wouldn't be much of a protest, Corbyn is as anti EU as the most red faced gammon .

More a protest against his policy of making the taxpayers bankroll future Labour election success by borrowing excessively to create as many "State" jobs as possible in order to ensure that those new State Employees will feel any future Tory vote is a vote for their own redundancy...

But let's not go there...

Brannen wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:16 am I saw this comment underneath an article about the vote of no confidence, made me smile -

Tories you made the decision about May two years ago, you can’t change it, that’s undemocratic.

Well, that's my day sorted. I'm off to troll people on Twitter with that one.

I'm still absolutely in love with the term "gammons".

dinny_g wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:48 am So May will go, any replacement will obviously NOT look to push Brexit through, we won't do the formal leaving as the ECJ has said we can. Things will drag on, a General Election will be called, Labour will win, Corbyn's Britain will commence (Comrades) and, to put Brexit to bed once and for all, will have a second referendum. Britain will vote to Leave the EU as a protest against Corbyn.

sound about right ???

The worrying aspect would be that Corbyn would be binned off shortly after any such election success and a genuine fruitcake extreme socialist installed.

JLv3.0 wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:53 am I'm still absolutely in love with the term "gammons".

You obviously missed the whole debate on social media a few months back where Gammons tried to argue that the word Gammons was racist. It was fucking hilarious.

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:55 am

dinny_g wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:48 am So May will go, any replacement will obviously NOT look to push Brexit through, we won't do the formal leaving as the ECJ has said we can. Things will drag on, a General Election will be called, Labour will win, Corbyn's Britain will commence (Comrades) and, to put Brexit to bed once and for all, will have a second referendum. Britain will vote to Leave the EU as a protest against Corbyn.

sound about right ???

The worrying aspect would be that Corbyn would be binned off shortly after any such election success and a genuine fruitcake extreme socialist installed.

The whole thing does have an air of it being really shit right now, but it's not impossible for things to get worse.