OV9

ShockDiamonds wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:38 pm

Rich B wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:35 pm

ShockDiamonds wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:32 pm

Yes but I’m talking about me Rich. Not you or anybody else.

Well I voted remain because there was no plan set out for any other option, shame so many others didn’t even give it that much thought.

This probably cannot be answered, but would you want to leave Europe? For you, Remain was ever the only option? In which case, you wouldn’t need a plan I guess. Dunno.

i didn’t/don’t want to leave Europe. It wouldn’t change anything for the better. (And despite repeated requests, no one can give any actual examples - including in the campaigns).

Any Immigration changes would just end up more hassle for the people who go through the proper channels whilst the illegals carry on bypassing the systems.

Renegotiating trade deals will surely put them at an advantage.

Not having a say in Europe when they have the ability to affect us is just daft.

The day of the vote I was at two of my best mates wedding, a Dutch guy and an English girl with my half polish wife. That’s the world now - who gives a fuck where you started.

Rich B wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:50 pm The day of the vote I was at two of my best mates wedding, a Dutch guy and an English girl with my half polish wife. That’s the world now - who gives a fuck where you started.

For some reason the people who live in a country where the history has been dominated by a rich mixture of cultures and backgrounds mainly driven through multiple invasions, it’s those descendants of immigrants who have decided they’re calling the kettle black.

Agreed (with Rich’s post). I have an auntie who is Ukrainian. A new guy in my team from Lithuania (and he’s bloody good). Friends living here from South Africa, one of them in the army, done several tours and won’t return to SA because “it is too dangerous”. I’ve seen first hand what proper immigration and movement can achieve and see no harm in it. All of this hasn’t happened in the last two years of course, I just don’t think I properly appraised it at the time. But I’m only seeing and appreciating that now, and I cannot be alone.

ShockDiamonds wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:58 pm I just don’t think I properly appraised it at the time. But I’m only seeing and appreciating that now, and I cannot be alone.

I find this baffling. Do you just pass through life with your eyes shut and only focus on the negatives?!

Rich B wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:33 pmNo, it was stupid. If someone says you can keep all your inheritance money in your bank or swap it for seven hundred thousand shiny boobliebums, would you try to find out more about the boobliebums (then stick with your inheritance because there’s no solid information on the worth of boobliebums) or just flip a coin.

Are boobliebums the mockdiamond v2.0?

I think to be fair to Mark, there was a lot of exaggeration, half-truths, lies and complete stinkers from both sides leading up to the referendum. If you were a previous 'undecided' then your vote could well have been influenced by any of that....

I watched the whole thing today in the background. Got to hand it to her she has a thick skin. My take;

No deal or a new deal and if they move once then that's going to encourage all parties in our government to want their own change.

All good fun.

Oh and by the way what would Corbyn do? Tosser.

ShockDiamonds wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:58 pm Agreed (with Rich’s post). I have an auntie who is Ukrainian. A new guy in my team from Lithuania (and he’s bloody good).

Reminds me of something my Grandma once said:

“I’ve got a new doctor. He’s a Pakistani, but he’s actually alright.”

240PP wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:08 pm

ShockDiamonds wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:58 pm Agreed (with Rich’s post). I have an auntie who is Ukrainian. A new guy in my team from Lithuania (and he’s bloody good).

Reminds me of something my Grandma once said:

“I’ve got a new doctor. He’s a Pakistani, but he’s actually alright.”

Wow your grandma found a good Dr. They are usually too interested in back handers. Bit like the government

Broccers wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:59 pm I watched the whole thing today in the background. Got to hand it to her she ̶ ̶h̶a̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶c̶k̶ ̶s̶k̶i̶n̶.̶ is absolutely desperate to cling on to power

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:55 pm

Wasn't suggesting you were Dave. Greece is but one amongst many issues, but probably one of the biggest.

[/quote]

I know you weren't, I just wanted to make sure you know I'm only asking because I'm trying to understand your viewpoint.

Greece is a interesting one, because it sets a lot of people off. My view is this: Greece made it's own bed with it's lax approach to economics and it was always going to have to pay the price eventually, and that didn't matter whether it was in the EU or not. Now, where the EU bit really matters is the fact that they were tied into the Euro and that left them with limited options. But that was also their choice to massage the numbers to make it in. The EU simply held them to the rules for the good of the rest of the bloc. Greece got themselves in the shit, and the EU helped in a way, but they definitely had limited options by not having control of their own currency.

unzippy wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:35 pm

Broccers wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:59 pm I watched the whole thing today in the background. Got to hand it to her she ̶ ̶h̶a̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶c̶k̶ ̶s̶k̶i̶n̶.̶ is absolutely desperate to cling on to power

I can't believe anyone else wants it at this moment

I'm quite sympathetic to Shockers. The campaign was vacuous on both sides and the Remain leaflet which dropped through our doors did not look like something which was trying to influence a fundamental change. And to be fair, the referendum was just an opinion poll. The fact that it has been taken to be a democratic mandate is the real issue; and more worryingly, the fact that MPs voted to give the Art.50 notification shows that, despite it being their actual jobs to assess the future consequences, they just went along with it. We might live in a representative democracy but our representatives are more self-serving and disinterested than the EU officials who have been so criticised by the Leave campaign. Take back control? What, give it to our MPs? Fuck no!

Jobbo wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:08 am

unzippy wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:35 pm

Broccers wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:59 pm I watched the whole thing today in the background. Got to hand it to her she ̶ ̶h̶a̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶c̶k̶ ̶s̶k̶i̶n̶.̶ is absolutely desperate to cling on to power

I can't believe anyone else wants it at this moment

I'm quite sympathetic to Shockers. The campaign was vacuous on both sides and the Remain leaflet which dropped through our doors did not look like something which was trying to influence a fundamental change. And to be fair, the referendum was just an opinion poll. The fact that it has been taken to be a democratic mandate is the real issue; and more worryingly, the fact that MPs voted to give the Art.50 notification shows that, despite it being their actual jobs to assess the future consequences, they just went along with it. We might live in a representative democracy but our representatives are more self-serving and disinterested than the EU officials who have been so criticised by the Leave campaign. Take back control? What, give it to our MPs? Fuck no!

So much this!

Was it on here that I read someone wanted to forcibly appoint successful businessmen and women on huge salaries to run the country and anyone with a view to having a career in politics was to be fired out of a cannon?

That may genuinely work aslong as we don't need to force them by knife point.

Dave!

Jobbo wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:08 am

unzippy wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:35 pm

Broccers wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:59 pm I watched the whole thing today in the background. Got to hand it to her she ̶ ̶h̶a̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶c̶k̶ ̶s̶k̶i̶n̶.̶ is absolutely desperate to cling on to power

I can't believe anyone else wants it at this moment

I'm quite sympathetic to Shockers. The campaign was vacuous on both sides and the Remain leaflet which dropped through our doors did not look like something which was trying to influence a fundamental change. And to be fair, the referendum was just an opinion poll. The fact that it has been taken to be a democratic mandate is the real issue; and more worryingly, the fact that MPs voted to give the Art.50 notification shows that, despite it being their actual jobs to assess the future consequences, they just went along with it. We might live in a representative democracy but our representatives are more self-serving and disinterested than the EU officials who have been so criticised by the Leave campaign. Take back control? What, give it to our MPs? Fuck no!

If a poll across the country is only an 'opinion poll' despite clear assurances it would be acted upon (which renders that argument pretty clearly false), how does that differ from the 'democratic mandate' accorded to the executive via a general election? One is a ballot on a single matter and one on a number of matters presented in a manifesto but I don't think you can say one provides a democratic mandate and the other doesn't with any coherence. Cameron clearly went to the country to provide just that democratic mandate on the basis of it being used to instigate proceedings to leave or to provide a mandate to say "let's bury this issue once and for all". Clearly he intended the latter but got the former.

The rush to article 50 invocation is interesting. I think it is clear that that was a grievous error in hindsight though again, if you look at that vote in the context of the circumstances existing at the time - it was passed shortly after the Gina Miller court case and the expectation that parliament would very possibly vote against exercising it, not just at that point, but at all. Hysteria was rife and the public mood was that there was a real risk Brexit would be stopped before it got going. That in my opinion fed into the decision to rush it through in no small way - to ensure the vote would not be treated as merely an "opinion poll" as you just stated. In the absence of that context and the vociferous remain backlash that followed the vote, would article 50 have been deferred until a more appropriate time? I don't think you can discount the possibility.

I wonder if they might end up calling off Brexit, give Tez the push, and then run a GE around tightening up boarders and other gammony persuits, which we will have all realised we were able to do even whilst in the EU

NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:06 am

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:55 pm

Wasn't suggesting you were Dave. Greece is but one amongst many issues, but probably one of the biggest.

I know you weren't, I just wanted to make sure you know I'm only asking because I'm trying to understand your viewpoint.

Greece is a interesting one, because it sets a lot of people off. My view is this: Greece made it's own bed with it's lax approach to economics and it was always going to have to pay the price eventually, and that didn't matter whether it was in the EU or not. Now, where the EU bit really matters is the fact that they were tied into the Euro and that left them with limited options. But that was also their choice to massage the numbers to make it in. The EU simply held them to the rules for the good of the rest of the bloc. Greece got themselves in the shit, and the EU helped in a way, but they definitely had limited options by not having control of their own currency.

Greece certainly are culpable to some degree for the situation they find themselves in. However, the EU were more than happy to allow the rules to be bent (by not only Greece but a few of the PIIGS) in order for their march forward towards closer integration to happen via the introduction of the single currency. Their fate was sealed at that point as you say.

However, the subsequent treatment of the Greece situation by the EU has only served to make matters so much worse than they really ought to have been. They've presided over a humanitarian disaster of their own making, and been unrepentant in the process, and now Greece are fvcked for evermore. Lagarde and the IMF have a lot to answer for as well - she's another dodgy tw4t just like Juncker, Tusk, Scheuble and Selmayr.

GG, you know as well as I do that Cameron did not have the power to make the referendum result binding. It was ratified by Parliament as a non-binding referendum. That's an opinion poll. The result of an opinion poll needs to be considered, the consequences analysed and only then can the actions to be taken as a consequence be identified.

What actually happened was an opinion poll was taken, Cameron fucked off, May got in because nobody else ran against her in the end, she went full tilt into giving the Art.50 notification (and that was the point at which MPs actually voted, but only after May had lost the Miller case in court) and then, only after that, have the consequences been ascertained.

But we're talking at cross purposes here. I'm not talking about the referendum being binding as clearly it wasn't at law and I'm not arguing that. That is different from saying it provided no 'democratic mandate' - a democratic mandate is obviously just political/moral justification to take a course of action and not legally binding.

The same could be said of manifesto promises in a general election campaign (which are also rarely fully thought through or costed) and the Salisbury Convention that the House of Lords does not vote against the enactment of those promises. That's a pretty helpful parallel to this situation as regards 'democratic mandate' I would have thought (other than the fact that there is no commons majority for Brexit so it is not entirely on all fours).