OV9

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:33 pm**

A Model 3 should do ~4miles/kWh, so 2kWh/mile is about 8x worse. Probably about what you’d expect.

To do 500 miles therefore requires 1000kWh of batteries. 10x the battery capacity of the long range Model S. That’s going to hit the working payload a fair bit; the battery alone would be about 6 tonnes.

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:51 pm**

Jobbo wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:33 pm A Model 3 should do ~4miles/kWh, so 2kWh/mile is about 8x worse. Probably about what you’d expect.

To do 500 miles therefore requires 1000kWh of batteries. 10x the battery capacity of the long range Model S. That’s going to hit the working payload a fair bit; the battery alone would be about 6 tonnes.

Yeah I screwed up some basic maths in my post earlier

A Tesla Model 3 does 0.25 kWh/mile, so as you say @Jobbo that would mean the semi uses 8x not 4x (as I wrongly started) the power of the car

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:06 pm**

While I think the truck is feasible, how long is it going to take to recharge?

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:22 pm**

Jobbo wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:06 pm While I think the truck is feasible, how long is it going to take to recharge?

I don't know enough about the electronics, but I wonder how simple/hard making a battery pack that's 10x the size of even the bigger car systems?

I'm not sure what driver restrictions are, bit drivers are limited by how many hours per day they can drive.

The downtime could be used to help mitigate charging times

But yes, charging a 1000kWh battery is likely to take some time...

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:29 pm**

Jobbo wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:06 pm While I think the truck is feasible, how long is it going to take to recharge?

Irrelevant - the truck driver would've stopped to use the toilet anyway.

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:30 pm**

DaveE wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:22 pm
I'm not sure what driver restrictions are, bit drivers are limited by how many hours per day they can drive.

9 hours in a day - this can be extended to 10 hours twice a week
56 hours in a week
90 hours in any 2 consecutive weeks

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:40 pm**

DaveE wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:22 pm
Jobbo wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:06 pm While I think the truck is feasible, how long is it going to take to recharge?
I don't know enough about the electronics, but I wonder how simple/hard making a battery pack that's 10x the size of even the bigger car systems?

I'm not sure what driver restrictions are, bit drivers are limited by how many hours per day they can drive.

The downtime could be used to help mitigate charging times

But yes, charging a 1000kWh battery is likely to take some time...

just a wee and a coffee...

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:41 pm**

I think one type of lorry which would benefit from being electrified is those 2 axle 7.5+ tonne rigid box ones. They’re nearly only used for relatively short bulky deliveries in the UK and rarely are they loaded heavily. 300 mile range on them would suffice for most I reckon.

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:43 am**

Simon wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:29 pm
Jobbo wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:06 pm While I think the truck is feasible, how long is it going to take to recharge?
Irrelevant - the truck driver would've stopped to use the toilet anyway.

I can certainly imagine a sweaty trucker taking a shit which lasts 48hours.

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:49 am**

Expect to see me working in lorry parks with a big diesel to charge these trucks at 300kw all night, multiplied by 10.

Dave!

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:51 am**

Mito Man wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:41 pm I think one type of lorry which would benefit from being electrified is those 2 axle 7.5+ tonne rigid box ones. They’re nearly only used for relatively short bulky deliveries in the UK and rarely are they loaded heavily. 300 mile range on them would suffice for most I reckon.

These wouldn’t even need a 300 mile range, a true 150 mile for all these AO, John Lewis, Curry’s deliveries etc.

The can shape can be different, electric tailgates, very quiet, not needing to be run at night so no need for huge charging speeds etc. they pretty much know what their day to day usage is going to be well in advance.

Dave!

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:27 am**

Any haulier who’s trucks run close to 44 tonnes probably won’t be interested in electric trucks. The weight of the tractor unit is crucial. Current tractor units are circa 8 tonnes. Based on the above, an electric one would be in the region of 13 tonnes.
The next issue is charging time. Depending on the work they’re doing, they may not refuel for a couple of days- currently there’s no ‘allowance’ in the day for time to charge a truck.
Capital outlay is another consideration, it’ll be interesting to see how much electric trucks are compared to traditional diesel ones.
They have their place, probably doing relatively light work and/or local multi-drops.

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:35 am**

What's the expected lifespan of the batteries in use these days in terms of miles/years/recharges and the replacement costs? Its something I've wondered about before but my knowledge is based on batteries used in technology products so I'm guessing those used in EV these days are very different beasts.

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:41 am**

mikeyb wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:27 am Any haulier who’s trucks run close to 44 tonnes probably won’t be interested in electric trucks. The weight of the tractor unit is crucial. Current tractor units are circa 8 tonnes. Based on the above, an electric one would be in the region of 13 tonnes.

Yeah - I can't see electric trucks becoming a thing anytime soon at all. Regardless of what Elon thinks.

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:00 am**

Mito Man wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:41 pm I think one type of lorry which would benefit from being electrified is those 2 axle 7.5+ tonne rigid box ones. They’re nearly only used for relatively short bulky deliveries in the UK and rarely are they loaded heavily. 300 mile range on them would suffice for most I reckon.

I saw an electric DPD delivery van the other actually, something like this:

I can see that making a lot of sense

It's almost like dairies figured this shit out nearly 100 years ago*

* A quick google search turned up this "The Express Dairy Company was the first to use electric floats in 1932."

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:15 am**

DaveE wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:00 am
Mito Man wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:41 pm I think one type of lorry which would benefit from being electrified is those 2 axle 7.5+ tonne rigid box ones. They’re nearly only used for relatively short bulky deliveries in the UK and rarely are they loaded heavily. 300 mile range on them would suffice for most I reckon.
I saw an electric DPD delivery van the other actually, something like this:

I can see that making a lot of sense

It's almost like dairies figured this shit out nearly 100 years ago*

* A quick google search turned up this "The Express Dairy Company was the first to use electric floats in 1932."

It’s crazy to think that electric vehicles were part of the UK urban and suburban landscape until the late 1980s, but we have short memories!
Several members of my family worked for Partidge & Wilson in Leicester, who were one of the leaders in battery vehicles in the 1930s, but some of the expertise was lost during the war and the remaining battery team got put to work on massive submarine batteries. My Dad recalls a member of staff having one craned into his garden (mid 1950s) for off-grid living if the UK suffered war and power cuts again.

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:51 am**

I got talking to a Truck guys at a trade event who explained that "downtime" - or specifically, reducing the amount of time when they unit is NOT hauling something - is a key factor.

A lot of technology is put into this. For example, he explained that modern Mercedes Tractors monitor over 1000 consumable parts and will communicate with the servicing dealership ahead of time so that when the tractor is booked in fora service, the part's already waiting. In fact, if a failure is imminent, the tractor will book an emergency service at the nearest available location with the part available. Also, Mercedes Servicing is 24 hour to allow truck servicing to happen overnight.

I'm not sure how many hours of recharging every day or two is going to align with this - perhaps back to switchable battery packs again ??

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:08 am**

DaveE wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:22 pm
Jobbo wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:06 pm While I think the truck is feasible, how long is it going to take to recharge?
I don't know enough about the electronics, but I wonder how simple/hard making a battery pack that's 10x the size of even the bigger car systems?

I'm not sure what driver restrictions are, bit drivers are limited by how many hours per day they can drive.

The downtime could be used to help mitigate charging times

But yes, charging a 1000kWh battery is likely to take some time...

There are no major advancements in battery capacity tech. To make a bigger one they just add more cells. When Elon quoted 40% more capacity years ago it was because he’d made them 40% bigger.

A 10x capacity battery is going to be ( very close to ) physically 10x bigger, weight 10x as much, and to charge at the same rate will take 10x as long. If if you could up charge rate to 10x as high it would take about the same time as the car.

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:15 am**

dinny_g wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:51 am I got talking to a Truck guys at a trade event who explained that "downtime" - or specifically, reducing the amount of time when they unit is NOT hauling something - is a key factor.

A lot of technology is put into this. For example, he explained that modern Mercedes Tractors monitor over 1000 consumable parts and will communicate with the servicing dealership ahead of time so that when the tractor is booked in fora service, the part's already waiting. In fact, if a failure is imminent, the tractor will book an emergency service at the nearest available location with the part available. Also, Mercedes Servicing is 24 hour to allow truck servicing to happen overnight.

I'm not sure how many hours of recharging every day or two is going to align with this - perhaps back to switchable battery packs again ??

I wondered about this too - I know that with heavy plant, even taxis, maximising the time they can be in use is crucial

It's why JCB is looking ay hydrogen engines because plant needs to be in use across shifts and they don't have the time to waste charging (vs refuelling) - there are obviously other drawbacks like massive weight for batteries

Really interesting to hear the lengths Mercedes goes to to keep trucks on the road though

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:43 am**

Was reading an interesting article about the reintroduction of horses as transport in France. They're used for street bin collections, as school buses, etc. Perhaps not in big cities, but in villages and towns that could be an alternative to a diesel van/minibus.

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