OV9

dinny_g wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:24 pm Well I'm not going to try...

It’s ok, he’s just intolerant of other people’s beliefs.

Dave!

V8Granite wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:52 pm

dinny_g wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:24 pm Well I'm not going to try...

It’s ok, he’s just intolerant of other people’s beliefs.

Dave!

I'm intolerant of intolerance and bigotry.

NotoriousREV wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:58 pm

V8Granite wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:52 pm

dinny_g wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:24 pm Well I'm not going to try...

It’s ok, he’s just intolerant of other people’s beliefs.

Dave!

I'm intolerant of intolerance and bigotry.

Snowflake!

As much as it might 'ignite' some divisions in the country, having a second ref is the only way to get a mandate to proceed. And MORE democracy is always better than less, and yes, having a vote now we know what we're voting for is MORE democratic than blinding forging ahead from the result of the last one regardless, not LESS. Here's how it works:

1) Electorate own some tasty cows, but are promised unicorns by some politicians.
2) Electorate, by a majority vote for unicorns.
3) Government spend 30+ months trying to find a unicorn seller. End up coming home with an injured horse with a pointy hat on its head.
4) Some in the Government try to explain to Parliament and the Electorate that unicorns never existed, and if they really, really want one they'll have to settle for the very nearest achievable thing (given all existing constraints), of said limping horse.
5) Some politicians continue to shriek that the Government simply isn't trying hard enough, and it is certainly possibly to have the very unicorns, and have them in even the shortest possible timescale. Existence of such unicorns has never ever been proven. The same politicians refuse to allow the dodgy horse into it's stable, and instead conspire to have it shot.
6) Parliament offers the Electorate a vote. Do you want to keep your tasty cows, have the lame but very real horse, or alternatively would you like to go hungry.
7) Electorate, by a majority vote for tasty cows.

Simon wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:08 pm As much as it might 'ignite' some divisions in the country, having a second ref is the only way to get a mandate to proceed. And MORE democracy is always better than less, and yes, having a vote now we know what we're voting for is MORE democratic than blinding forging ahead from the result of the last one regardless, not LESS. Here's how it works:

You still won't know what you're voting for. Well, you will, More EU or Less EU - same as last time.

NotoriousREV wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:58 pm

V8Granite wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:52 pm

dinny_g wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:24 pm Well I'm not going to try...

It’s ok, he’s just intolerant of other people’s beliefs.

Dave!

I'm intolerant of intolerance and bigotry.

Were you a semi intolerant bigot until you decided to vote Remain only a short time before the Ref?

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:11 pm

Simon wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:08 pm As much as it might 'ignite' some divisions in the country, having a second ref is the only way to get a mandate to proceed. And MORE democracy is always better than less, and yes, having a vote now we know what we're voting for is MORE democratic than blinding forging ahead from the result of the last one regardless, not LESS. Here's how it works:

You still won't know what you're voting for. Well, you will, More EU or Less EU - same as last time.

At the moment we have 3 options:

- No Deal, which comes with a myriad of problems due to being completely outside of all trading blocs with zero upside.
- Deal, which means we'll have to accept EU rules and regulations for an unspecified amount of time with zero influence over those rules and regulations
- Remain, which means continued membership of the trading bloc and influence over the future direction, as well a a democratic process to input into that future

It's pretty clear what's on offer.

There is no better deal in any measurable way than Remain. If you believe differently, please feel free to share that view with the class.

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:12 pm

NotoriousREV wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:58 pm

V8Granite wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:52 pm

It’s ok, he’s just intolerant of other people’s beliefs.

Dave!

I'm intolerant of intolerance and bigotry.

Were you a semi intolerant bigot until you decided to vote Remain only a short time before the Ref?

Well, at no time did I consider "I don't like hearing foreign languages in my town centre" to be a reason to vote Leave.

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:11 pm

Simon wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:08 pm As much as it might 'ignite' some divisions in the country, having a second ref is the only way to get a mandate to proceed. And MORE democracy is always better than less, and yes, having a vote now we know what we're voting for is MORE democratic than blinding forging ahead from the result of the last one regardless, not LESS. Here's how it works:

You still won't know what you're voting for. Well, you will, More EU or Less EU - same as last time.

I respectfully disagree. I think there is more (not full, but more) understanding of what the EU is and isn't, and what we have power of veto over and not. The 'no closer union' etc talk in all the pre-referendum arguments touched on this. I say this as a leave voter in ref1, but I would vote remain if ref2 happened.

Look, the problem is that there isn't a 'perfect' scenario here. I just think that, on balance, remaining in the EU (and taking the opportunity to try and influence it) will likely result in a more prosperous UK than leaving it and forging our own way.

NotoriousREV wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:17 pm

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:12 pm

NotoriousREV wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:58 pm

I'm intolerant of intolerance and bigotry.

Were you a semi intolerant bigot until you decided to vote Remain only a short time before the Ref?

Well, at no time did I consider "I don't like hearing foreign languages in my town centre" to be a reason to vote Leave.

Luckily neither did I.

Dave!

V8Granite wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:19 pm

NotoriousREV wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:17 pm

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:12 pm

Were you a semi intolerant bigot until you decided to vote Remain only a short time before the Ref?

Well, at no time did I consider "I don't like hearing foreign languages in my town centre" to be a reason to vote Leave.

Luckily neither did I.

Dave!

Snap.

V8Granite wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:19 pm

NotoriousREV wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:17 pm

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:12 pm

Were you a semi intolerant bigot until you decided to vote Remain only a short time before the Ref?

Well, at no time did I consider "I don't like hearing foreign languages in my town centre" to be a reason to vote Leave.

Luckily neither did I.

Dave!

I never said you did, but there were plenty of others that voted for exactly that reason. People who maybe saw a gang of 10 Eastern europeans regularly jabbering away in their own language, maybe genuinely being aggressive and that became a reason to vote against the EU and the 3.8m EU citizens that live here, the vast majority of which live normal lives like the rest of us. The troublemakers, the scroungers, the single men living in MMO housing (because they can't afford anything better) are the tiny, tiny majority. We have plenty of home grown talent in the "making an area a shithole" stakes.

Simon wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:18 pm

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:11 pm

Simon wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:08 pm As much as it might 'ignite' some divisions in the country, having a second ref is the only way to get a mandate to proceed. And MORE democracy is always better than less, and yes, having a vote now we know what we're voting for is MORE democratic than blinding forging ahead from the result of the last one regardless, not LESS. Here's how it works:

You still won't know what you're voting for. Well, you will, More EU or Less EU - same as last time.

I respectfully disagree. I think there is more (not full, but more) understanding of what the EU is and isn't, and what we have power of veto over and not. The 'no closer union' etc talk in all the pre-referendum arguments touched on this. I say this as a leave voter in ref1, but I would vote remain if ref2 happened.

Look, the problem is that there isn't a 'perfect' scenario here. I just think that, on balance, remaining in the EU (and taking the opportunity to try and influence it) will likely result in a more prosperous UK than leaving it and forging our own way.

Disagree all you like, you can't exactly say what the long term situation would be whether we "remained" or "left". Hence why I always took it to mean more or less rather than in or out. That's about all we can know.

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:31 pm

V8Granite wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:19 pm

NotoriousREV wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:17 pm

Well, at no time did I consider "I don't like hearing foreign languages in my town centre" to be a reason to vote Leave.

Luckily neither did I.

Dave!

Snap.

So what did you vote for? You're happily telling me I'm wrong, but you're still not answering the questions: what will be better? How will our lives improve? What are the positive factors that drove you vote Leave?

I did answer a very long time ago. No one responded at the time. I choose not to respond again because I cba with the utterly pointless arguing that could ensue (appreciating that I am sort of right now ). Rest assured, it wasn't because I hate foreigners and want them out, it wasn't even for pure economic benefits - if it makes you feel any better I spent much of my time pre-referendum arguing with those that were likely to vote the same way as me because of their idiotic reasonings, much to the surprise of my remain friends/colleagues present.

I don't like the EU as a political organisation and a lot of the s**t it gets up to. I'd happily see the political side of the European project dismantled completely, or reformed from the ground up. I wish Varoufakis and the Diem25 movement all the best in that regard, but I don't believe it will ever happen.

I'll simply leave it at that.

NotoriousREV wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:35 pm

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:31 pm

V8Granite wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:19 pm

Luckily neither did I.

Dave!

Snap.

So what did you vote for? You're happily telling me I'm wrong, but you're still not answering the questions: what will be better? How will our lives improve? What are the positive factors that drove you vote Leave?

Your vote was/ is as valid as mine as is your reasoning.

I’m not saying anyone is wrong, I voted for what I hope will be the best way to have the outcome I would like in my life, for my kids etc. If we voted stay then that would have been fine too. I’d have been disappointed but that’s how life is.

I don’t get why you are struggling here.

My experiences in life have led me to the decision I made, as has yours. If I lived 100 miles away in an area affected in a different way I’d possibly vote differently too.

My sister had the same upbringing as me but voted stay.

Dave!

All seemed pretty clear to me.

V8Granite wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:52 pm

NotoriousREV wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:35 pm

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:31 pm

Snap.

So what did you vote for? You're happily telling me I'm wrong, but you're still not answering the questions: what will be better? How will our lives improve? What are the positive factors that drove you vote Leave?

Your vote was/ is as valid as mine as is your reasoning.

I’m not saying anyone is wrong, I voted for what I hope will be the best way to have the outcome I would like in my life, for my kids etc. If we voted stay then that would have been fine too. I’d have been disappointed but that’s how life is.

I don’t get why you are struggling here.

My experiences in life have led me to the decision I made, as has yours. If I lived 100 miles away in an area affected in a different way I’d possibly vote differently too.

My sister had the same upbringing as me but voted stay.

Dave!

So what does this better future for your kids look like? What will be better for them?

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:45 pm I did answer a very long time ago. No one responded at the time. I choose not to respond again because I cba with the utterly pointless arguing that could ensue (appreciating that I am sort of right now ).

See, JL? I told you.

Mike, I swear I’m not being provocative, but what “shit that the EU gets up to” do you mean? I’d guess the Greece situation?

Rich B wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:28 pm

ShockDiamonds wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:15 pmAs stupid as it sounds, given the grave importance of it, I voted leave because it almost came down a coin toss, based on what little info I had been fed (yes, really) and that which I'd been able to find for myself (very little).

Massively stupid. If you don’t understand what you’re voting to change to, then don’t vote to change to it.

No Rich, it wasn’t ‘massively stupid’. Try to find a little space in your head to entertain the idea that some voters still want to contribute even though they’re on the fence right up until the moment they’re stood there, pencil in hand. I regret the decision. But if I’d not voted, that would have been worse as apathy is the logical conclusion. ‘Stupid’ refers only to the ‘on the fence’ nature of the decision.

If myself and others like me had voted remain and not leave it may have been different. Hindsight of course. We’re back to the lack of info or clarity on the argument. I vote the same way in each GE because I know, give or take, what I’ll be getting. But with this, it was something totally new and without experience as to what to do. The info wasn’t sufficient, hence being on the fence. But that doesn’t necessarily mean I should abstain. Yes I regret the way I voted, but I don’t regret deciding to vote, as clumsy as that sounds.