Bye bye Starmer

[GG.]

WFA costs are only about £2bil a year according to google.

IMG_1759.jpeg

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re ... 520billion.

I can’t see this process saving any money in the long term.

Looks to me as if there's £1.3bn+ which can be saved there, which is a decent step towards the £22bn black hole. In fact, looking at the cost of living allowance as well, maybe there's £3.3bn which is 15% of the way to filling the hole.

Based on Reeves own estimates it’ll save £1.5bil. Which means that the “black hole” will be filled somewhere around 2035. It’s an indication of another pretty bleak decade for poor people.

To be honest I think she knows as much about economics as Vic Reeves. Perhaps we should sub him in as chancellor. At least he'd give us a good laugh.

[Mito Man]

I'll be controversial and say foreign aid can be scrapped. If you can't afford to run your own affairs you shouldn't be giving money away, most of it to corruption. That's half the £22B problem solved.

[Jobbo]

If we accept that increasing economic inequality is bad, we should be open to options that will even it out imo.

Such as means-testing benefits rather than giving them to the wealthy, yes?

I don't think means-testing WFA is the only policy/tax change anticipated so the fact that on its own it could fill the black hole over time is actually more detrimental to your argument than helpful.

[ZedLeg]

I’m not a fan of means testing benefits as it puts a lot of duress on people who are already stressed/in crisis and it can go on for months.

Like I say, based on experience I have to assume that they make the process as hard and invasive as possible to deter people from applying.

It seems like overkill especially in this situation as it’s not a lot of money.

Do you think this’ll make any meaningful impact on the gap between richest and poorest?

[Beany]

I'll be controversial and say foreign aid can be scrapped. If you can't afford to run your own affairs you shouldn't be giving money away, most of it to corruption. That's half the £22B problem solved.

And significant holes blown in our international diplomatic relations and foreign policy goals.

Genius.

[Mito Man]

I'll be controversial and say foreign aid can be scrapped. If you can't afford to run your own affairs you shouldn't be giving money away, most of it to corruption. That's half the £22B problem solved.

And significant holes blown in our international diplomatic relations and foreign policy goals.

Genius.

Maybe that can be focused on when there's no homeless people and poverty in this country.
The whole foreign relation bollocks is a big part of this mess.

[Jobbo]

I’m not a fan of means testing benefits as it puts a lot of duress on people who are already stressed/in crisis and it can go on for months.

Like I say, based on experience I have to assume that they make the process as hard and invasive as possible to deter people from applying.

It seems like overkill especially in this situation as it’s not a lot of money.

Do you think this’ll make any meaningful impact on the gap between richest and poorest?

I don't think it will have any meaningful impact on inequality. I do think it will have an impact on the country's ability to fund its expenditure.

Means testing is already ingrained in the system. Unless you think giving everyone benefits is a good idea, they have to be means-tested. Philosophically the idea of a universal basic income is the alternative and that's interesting but a bit utopian and almost bound to fail if this country were to introduce it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income

[ZedLeg]

Like I said, from my experience means testing is more of a block on anyone getting benefits than a check to make sure it’s the people who need it that are getting it.

If I had to pick between 2 broken systems, I’m going to pick the one that doesn’t cause unnecessary stress to the people who need help.

[Jobbo]

If I had to pick between 2 broken systems, I’m going to pick the one that doesn’t cause unnecessary stress to the people who need help.

Not the one which is better for the country's budget? What would you de-fund instead?

[dinny_g]

I'll be controversial and say foreign aid can be scrapped. If you can't afford to run your own affairs you shouldn't be giving money away, most of it to corruption. That's half the £22B problem solved.

And significant holes blown in our international diplomatic relations and foreign policy goals.

Genius.

I have to think that giving India £2.3Bn between 2016 and 2021 (source https://icai.independent.gov.uk/html-ve ... #section-7) at a time when the Indian Government is allocating £1.3Bn per year to it's space program, doesn't quite sit well.

Smacks a little of "We can't expect other countries to do what other countries expect us to do"

[ZedLeg]

If I had to pick between 2 broken systems, I’m going to pick the one that doesn’t cause unnecessary stress to the people who need help.

Not the one which is better for the country's budget? What would you de-fund instead?

Trident

[Beany]

I'll be controversial and say foreign aid can be scrapped. If you can't afford to run your own affairs you shouldn't be giving money away, most of it to corruption. That's half the £22B problem solved.

And significant holes blown in our international diplomatic relations and foreign policy goals.

Genius.

Maybe that can be focused on when there's no homeless people and poverty in this country.
The whole foreign relation bollocks is a big part of this mess.

Yeah, we shouldn't have relations with foreign countries.

Here's a very basic overview which should help explain the value of foreign aid a bit better.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-39653421

For example, fucking off foreign aid would impact our ability to negotiate trade with other developed countries, as weirdly, they might have an issue with us going "nah, fuck it, we're not helping" when they still are.

Which in a post-brexit world, you know, a bit relevant

@dinny_g we don't give the indian govt 2.3bn a year - we give our our own/indian charities, NGOs etc money for them to act in India, although how useful it is, in India specifically, is somewhat debatable.

[Mito Man]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_d ... ate_donors

We can afford to give away much less and still be ahead of most of our trading partners

[Beany]

Yup, I'm sure the countries who are maintaining or exceeding the 0.7% UN ODA target won't notice if we go "well, we're putting in $4bn, that's as much as Norway, that's fair" or realise that's a much smaller percentage of GNI and definitely won't fuck us off when we need to import, say, cobalt or rubber from them, and would very much like a lower tariff on it.

You can take that level of argument to the Daily Mail comments section as far as I'm concerned, I'm not wasting my time on it.

[dinny_g]

@dinny_g we don't give the Indian govt 2.3bn a year

I know - over a 5 year period - as stated.

And I'm not suggesting cutting it completely - but simply maintaining a level of payment we can afford which, given our "Black Hole" is now considerably less than before.

[Beany]

Sorry, the point I was making wasn't about the amount, it's that we don't give the actual indian govt anything; ie we aren't paying for their space program - it's NGOs/charities/for profits etc who are meant to be 'helping' that we give the money to.

[ZedLeg]

Estimates are that Britain took £45 trillion out of India until they gave up the colony.

Think of this as reparations.

[dinny_g]

and all I'm saying is that if we give 50% less say and the Indian government divert the balance to maintain the same level of help help , rather than on vanity projects, they everyone would be better off.

And look, I get the Indian Government is trying to invest in their future and build an "Affordable" space programme for satellite launches. but you have to make sure your people aren't starving first, an easier decision to make with "others" are helping out (at the cost of, perhaps, some of their own people freezing this winter)

I get it's nuanced but still, difficult to accept unilaterally - at least for me

Edit...

Think of this as reparations.

No - but that's a different discussion...

[ZedLeg]

I know reparations is a bad word in Britain

[dinny_g]

And at the risk of being accused of "What about'ism", so it should be in France, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, The Netherlands, America, Canada, Germany etc. The list is endless...

But it doesn't seem to be in those countries...